X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.12.143.101] (HELO imo-m13.mail.aol.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.0) with ESMTP id 2787880 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 01:45:17 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.143.101; envelope-from=Lehanover@aol.com Received: from Lehanover@aol.com by imo-m13.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.3.) id q.d2f.192f73fe (39331) for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 01:44:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Lehanover@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 01:44:33 EDT Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Possible Causes : [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant leak - the tear... To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1205300673" X-Mailer: Unknown sub 36 X-Spam-Flag: NO -------------------------------1205300673 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit None that I can imagine. On this next assembly, use antisieze compound on the case bolt threads and under the heads of the bolts. Apply a spiral of silicone sealant only along the center of the bolts, and not so much that giant goobers of it pile up on the rear iron. It will spread out and glue most of the bolt in place. Torque the bolts in 4 passes using the sequence in the book. Get the last torque in one motion. Let the engine sit for 30 minutes. Do the torque sequence again, but this time use a breaker bar to loosen each bolt one full turn and then torque it down in one motion without stopping until the wrench clicks. Do not use the torque wrench to loosen bolts. Do the whole sequence the same way.Use the lowest torque figure recommended for your engine. With the antisieze you will be in the very highest torque range of the bolt. Because the published torque is for clean dry threads. You may have noticed that the bolts never seem to tighten fully when following the directions in the several books. The bolts are very springy, and keep stretching when loaded. You can go back in a week after following the books directions and find bolts below the stock torque settings. Just tightening the bolt from wherever it is at the below required setting does not let lubricant back between the loaded threads. And the torque you produce at that point will again be below specs in a week. Try it on a junk block or stack of parts. Torque it up. Let it sit. Make an ink dot at the junction of the block and side of the bolt head. Without loosening the bolt, just torque it again and note the position of the ink dot. Now loosen the bolt one full turn and torque it in one motion until the wrench clicks. 9 out of 10 bolts will turn further than the first dot. So now, which of those wrench clicks was the correct torque? Well not the first 5 or so. The point of the torque reading is to establish a uniform amount of stretch in the bolt. Just into its working range. So now the case is torqued up solid, and nice and square. On assembly circle each bolt hole in the rotor housings with a bead of whatever you like to use for sealing the case up. Not actually a bead, but wipe a thin layer on with your finger. The reason for this is that every so often you will find water in a bolt hole. Or a drip of water out of the bell housing. The rotor housings are soft and quite flexible, and will conform to the surface of the irons. One would expect that with tons of pressure on these surfaces, that 100% of the sealant would be squeezed out from between the flat faces, yet there it is in a number of places on disassembly. So I don't trust anything to seal up without some form of sealant on it. Don't forget the surfaces down to the pan rails. I use 100% GE silicone in a calking gun. Hylomar is more elegant and does well. I used to glue Hewland gear boxes together with it and never had a leak. The blue stuff. I think Locktite owns it now. Not beads of stuff but a bit on your finger to spread it along, and as long as you can see a continuous layer of sealant on the surface that is plenty. You don't need stalactites of silicone hanging inside the engine. Even with new water and compression seals I use a tiny amount of sealant in the grooves before the "O" ring goes in. It is then glued in place and assembly is easy. The day after assembly turn the engine so that a rotor face is just covering the leading plug hole (apex seal between the plugs) and blow air into the leading plug hole. Excess sealant will exit the exhaust port. Do it three times each housing. On bridge ported engines the compression "O" ring is cut open where it would hang into the intake port. The ring groove is blocked on both sides of the port so the ring will not extrude into the port. A drop of silicone at the end of the ring keeps everything sealed up fine. The iron to aluminum junction along the outer part of the port just gets a bit of silicone and nothing else. Never a leak. If completed as above, you would have to incinerate the engine to get it to leak coolant. Short of a cracked iron or flaw in a casting. Lynn E. Hanover In a message dated 3/11/2008 8:33:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Dastaten@earthlink.net writes: What's aggravating is that to FIX the original end play problem I listened to someone else who was supposed to be an authority as well. I cant remember for sure at this point who it was, so the name is besides the point. Its my mistake and my engine and I'm taking ownership of it. And.. for what its worth is there ANY way that this could have caused a coolant leak (separation of housings, etc..?) **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. 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None that I can imagine.
 
 On this next assembly, use antisieze compound on the case bo= lt=20 threads and under the heads of the bolts. Apply a spiral of silicone sealant= =20 only along the center of the bolts, and not so much that giant goobers of it= =20 pile up on the rear iron. It will spread out and glue most of the bolt in pl= ace.=20  Torque the bolts in 4 passes using the sequence in the book. Get the l= ast=20 torque in one motion. Let the engine sit for 30 minutes. Do the torque seque= nce=20 again, but this time use a breaker bar to loosen each bolt one full turn and= =20 then torque it down in one motion without stopping until the wrench clicks.=20= Do=20 not use the torque wrench to loosen bolts.
 
 Do the whole sequence the same way.Use the lowest torque figure=20 recommended for your engine.  With the antisieze you will be in th= e=20 very highest torque range of the bolt. Because the published torque is for c= lean=20 dry threads.
 
You may have noticed that the bolts never seem to tighten fully when=20 following the directions in the several books. The bolts are very springy, a= nd=20 keep stretching when loaded. You can go back in a week after following the b= ooks=20 directions and find bolts below the stock torque settings. Just tightening t= he=20 bolt from wherever it is at the below required setting does not let lubrican= t=20 back between the loaded threads. And the torque you produce at that poi= nt=20 will again be below specs in a week.
 
Try it on a junk block or stack of parts. Torque it up. Let it sit. Mak= e an=20 ink dot at the junction of the block and side of the bolt head. Without=20 loosening the bolt, just torque it again and note the position of the ink=20 dot.
 
Now loosen the bolt one full turn and torque it in one motion until the= =20 wrench clicks. 9 out of 10 bolts will turn further than the first dot. So no= w,=20 which of those wrench clicks was the correct torque? Well not the first 5 or= so.=20 The point of the torque reading is to establish a uniform amount of str= etch=20 in the bolt. Just into its working range. So now the case is torqu= ed=20 up solid, and nice and square.
 
On assembly circle each bolt hole in the rotor housings with a bead of=20 whatever you like to use for sealing the case up.  Not actually a bead,= but=20 wipe a thin layer on with your finger. The reason for this is that every so=20 often you will find water in a bolt hole. Or a drip of water out of the bell= =20 housing.
 
The rotor housings are soft and quite flexible, and will conform to the= =20 surface of the irons. One would expect that with tons of pressure on these=20 surfaces, that 100% of the sealant would be squeezed out from between the fl= at=20 faces, yet there it is in a number of places on disassembly. So I don't= =20 trust anything to seal up without some form of sealant on it. Don't forget t= he=20 surfaces down to the pan rails. I use 100% GE silicone in a calking gun. Hyl= omar=20 is more elegant and does well. I used to glue Hewland gear boxes together wi= th=20 it and never had a leak. The blue stuff. I think Locktite owns it now.
 
Not beads of stuff but a bit on your finger to spread it along, and as=20= long=20 as you can see a continuous layer of sealant on the surface that is plenty.=20= You=20 don't need stalactites of silicone hanging inside the engine. Even with new=20 water and compression seals I use a tiny amount of sealant in the grooves be= fore=20 the "O" ring goes in. It is then glued in place and assembly is easy. The da= y=20 after assembly turn the engine so that a rotor face is just covering the lea= ding=20 plug hole (apex seal between the plugs) and blow air into the leading plug h= ole.=20 Excess sealant will exit the exhaust port. Do it three times each housing.=20
 
On bridge ported engines the compression "O" ring is cut open where it=20 would hang into the intake port. The ring groove is blocked on both sides of= the=20 port so the ring will not extrude into the port. A drop of silicone at the e= nd=20 of the ring keeps everything sealed up fine. The iron to aluminum junction a= long=20 the outer part of the port just gets a bit of silicone and nothing else. Nev= er a=20 leak.  
 
If completed as above, you would have to incinerate the engine to get i= t to=20 leak coolant. Short of a cracked iron or flaw in a casting.
 
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/11/2008 8:33:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 Dastaten@earthlink.net writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>What's=20 aggravating is that to FIX the original end play problem I
listened to= =20 someone else who was supposed to be an authority as well. I
cant remem= ber=20 for sure at this point who it was, so the name is besides
the point. I= ts=20 my mistake and my engine and I'm taking ownership of it.

And.. for=20= what=20 its worth is there ANY way that this could have caused a
coolant leak=20 (separation of housings,=20 etc..?)




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