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From: "Christopher Barber" <CBarber@TexasAttorney.net>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
References: <list-2784636@logan.com>
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Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Possible Causes : [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant leak - the teardown
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 22:17:27 -0500
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It seemed to come out of both housings.  When I took off the exhaust pipe 
and turned over the engine by hand it gushed onto the floor.  That being 
said, I only remember it squirting out of the front plug hole but I was so 
dumbfounded by the sight, it may have been both....donno.  All the plugs had 
coolant on them when removed.  Thanks.  All thoughts are welcome.

All the best,

Chris


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 10:01 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Possible Causes : [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant leak - the 
teardown


> Chris,
>
> Take a straight edge and make certain your side housings are not warped. 
> The rotor housing and side plate need to have a tight fit. Any debris that 
> may have gotten lodged (could be very small piece of metal) between rotor 
> housing and side housing could cause a leak into the rotor housing.  Same 
> bit of metal might be very hard to find upon disassembly.
>
> The fact that your bearing was destroyed may have contributed - check your 
> side housings to make certain the rotor wasn't scrapping/pushing on the 
> iron housings as it ran due to the failed thrust bearing.  Without the 
> bearing those rotors could have been moving laterally much more than 
> normal and possibly contact the side housings. I don't think that would 
> cause the coolant leak, but wouldn't hurt to check closely.
>
> If the O ring had not seated properly (gotten pinched) it can be hard to 
> tell upon disassembly but could have compromised your sealing - you might 
> be able to spot the pinched area - but perhaps not.
>
> The ONLY ways I am aware of for coolant to get into your rotor housing 
> are:
>
> 1.  A compromised "O" ring (bad ring, pinched ring or too much heat) - 
> generally the most common cause of leakage.
> 2. A bad "O" ring lan in the iron side housing - this can be hard to find, 
> because the vertical wall may look fine, but you might have a crack at the 
> base of the vertical wall of the outside part of the groove in the side 
> housing.  Take a dentist pick and pull the tip along the inside of the "O" 
> ring grove - particularly on the outside part. If you get any  catches - 
> check that area very carefully.
> 3. A hole in the side housing or rotor housing through into the coolant 
> galleys - but that should be readily apparent
> 4.  Very unlikely but made certain your spark plug hole through the rotor 
> housing doesn't have a leak to the coolant galleys.  Plug up one end 
> (inside the rotor house - say with your finger) of the spark plug hole and 
> then force compressed air into the other end of the spark plug hole - it 
> should cause air to blow past your finger - if not you have a hole into 
> the coolant galley.
> 5.  With the older aluminum rotor housings - there was a belief that if 
> they got too hot, the compressive forces of the tension bolts could cause 
> the housing to "shrink" (compress)  a bit in width.  There was a 
> specification about minimum width permitted the rotor housings.
>
> Very early on I overheated my 86 N/A and got a coolant leak.  When I check 
> the housing, it was at the very minimum limit - now I've always sort of 
> doubted this "shrinking" took place, but apparently Mazda did not.  So you 
> might check the housings width before putting it back together just on the 
> outside chance.
>
> All I can think of
>
> Ed
> .
> .
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Christopher Barber" <CBarber@TexasAttorney.net>
> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 10:14 PM
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant leak - the teardown
>
>
>> So guys, what do y'all think.  What do you think is causing the coolant 
>> in the rotor housings.  I really want to figure this out before I put the 
>> dang thing back together.  Your help is appreciated.  TIA.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Staten" <Dastaten@earthlink.net>
>> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
>> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 8:29 PM
>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Coolant leak - the teardown
>>
>>
>>> Well.. today we tore the engine apart.. the short and sweet of it is 
>>> there is no obvious source of a coolant leak.
>>>
>>> Took the engine apart without too much trouble..
>>>
>>> As we pulled off all the housings we checked the rotor faces, the 
>>> grooves, the seals and the intake ports for any sign of a leak or 
>>> blowout. None was forthcoming. I had expected to see a blown out coolant 
>>> o-ring groove, but all were intact. Felt the intake ports, no sign of a 
>>> problem there either. I had only ported the center iron, so the other 
>>> two end irons were stock. So as it stands, we have an engine that is 
>>> giving us no obvious reason for a coolant leak. The bolts werent loose 
>>> at all.. they were so snug from tape and silicone it took a hammer and 
>>> vise grips to extract them once they were untightened.. So thats the 
>>> semi good news..... nothing obvious.
>>>
>>> Now the bad news..
>>>
>>> When we took the engine apart, I was concerned about how the rebuild 
>>> itself went.. and how things held up to our first attempt at building 
>>> the engine. I examined things as we took them apart and paid particular 
>>> attention to the front end.
>>>
>>> I was even showing Chris how the front bearings can be a problem if you 
>>> loosen the front bolt and cause a bearing to get pinched.. well the 
>>> front bearing on the outside of the thrust plate looked fine. Took off 
>>> the thrust plate and discovered that the other bearing had destroyed 
>>> itself. At this point, Chis chimed in that there was metal bits in the 
>>> oil when he drained it, and lo and behold the bits resembled the roller 
>>> pins in the bearing..
>>>
>>> The spacer had welded itself with the inner ring on the destroyed 
>>> bearing, forming a spoked wheel, and the inside of the thrust plate had 
>>> wear damage to it as well.
>>>
>>> I am certain i know when this happened. During assembly, everything went 
>>> as it should. end play was ok. I had installed the stock pulley on the 
>>> front at the time of rebuild. After we added the PSRU I was no longer 
>>> able to check end play, as it secured the engine's flywheel travel.
>>>
>>> At some point, we purchased and I added a double pulley, and while i 
>>> took care not to let things shift around, I am suspecting that this is 
>>> when it happened. The lesson: don't remove the front nut if you cant 
>>> check end play or put the engine vertical.
>>>
>>> The remainder of things looked great - no missing pieces, nothing burnt, 
>>> no gouges... 10 hours of use on the ground and thats what weve found.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> --
>>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>> Archive and UnSub: 
>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
>
>
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