X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.12.137.3] (HELO imo-m22.mail.aol.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2c1) with ESMTP id 2604139 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:31:31 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.137.3; envelope-from=WRJJRS@aol.com Received: from WRJJRS@aol.com by imo-m22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.3.) id q.c28.257d594d (37043) for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:30:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from FWM-D29 (fwm-d29.webmail.aol.com [205.188.162.5]) by cia-db03.mx.aol.com (v121.4) with ESMTP id MAILCIADB031-90b347683c061ff; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:30:47 -0500 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Supercharging Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:30:47 -0500 X-AOL-IP: 65.161.241.3 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: wrjjrs@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CA0FD4632B5A4D_B18_3C0D_FWM-D29.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 33161-STANDARD Received: from 65.161.241.3 by FWM-D29.sysops.aol.com (205.188.162.5) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:30:47 -0500 Message-Id: <8CA0FD4632B5A4D-B18-1DAE@FWM-D29.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag: NO ----------MB_8CA0FD4632B5A4D_B18_3C0D_FWM-D29.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ernest, All that the leaf blower is is the compressor scroll of a turbo charger. many of the aircraft superchargers, circa WW2 used a centrifugal supercharger which is exactly what you are describing.? Think you will find it more trouble than it's worth. Mainly due to breakage of the parts at high RPMs. You will have to design your own drive, and it is a drive even?if simply a shaft connection.?You would probably find a belt driven centrifugal supercharger and using a underdriven (reducing) system. You will find a supercharged 13B will make 200 HP very easily. Bill Jepson?? -----Original Message----- From: Ernest Christley To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:41 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Supercharging wrjjrs@aol.com wrote:? > Ernest, No that isn't true. I agree that any supercharging method > certainly adds complication. The MAJOR difference is that a > SUPERcharger, rather than a turbo requires additional careful > engineering to enable the DRIVE for the blower to survive. A turbo > must be mounted itself, but the drive is simple, even if the plumbing > isn't.? > Cheers,? > Bill? >? ? Ed Anderson wrote:? > Depending on the compressor type used on the supercharger your > efficiency can drop down to below 50% (some of the older roots type > expellers) , the centrifugal compressors (which can be on super or > turbochargers) are generally higher efficiency (can approach 75%) in > converting input energy into high pressure air. So a bit more efficient.? ? I'm going to sidestep Ed's argument about using energy before or after it has been converted to mechanical energy, because just thinking about it is making my head hurt. Instead, I'll move on to the type of blower and it's mounting. I spoke about this at the Rotary Roundup a couple of years ago. Tom is just about through with machining the parts, and I'm about through building my fuselage, so I should have real hardware to test with "Real Soon Now"(TM).? ? The rotary is unique among aircraft engines, in that we have 6000 shaft RPM to work with. Normally, that is considered a liability, in that it requires an extra gearbox to drop the RPM to a range usable by a propeller; but, supercharging is a case where I believe we can make some lemonade. ? 6000RPM is about the speed that commercial leaf blowers use. The blowers just happen to be about the same size as an engine housing. A conservative blower will easily deliver 600 CFM at 150MPH. We don't usually want a LOT of boost in an airplane, since that will impact reliability, but how much is a LOT? The typical supercharger is heavy, requiring some major engineering to produce a reliable mount and drive system. A turbo carries its own list of issues, not the least of which is blowing the intake air across a hot exhaust component. A blower, mounted as an integral part of the flywheel and enclosed by the bell housing, would sidestep most of the problems. It won't deliver a LOT of boost, but neither will it require pop-off valves, waste-gates, intercoolers or a heavy mounting system. I will consider it a win, if I can get 200Hp at 7000RPM.? ? Richard Sohn asked me at the Round-up about how would I know if it works. I had to think about that one. The answer is that I will provide for an alternate air intake (at least temporarily). I will do a pull test, while running the engine with air being pulled through the blower and through the alternate air intake. The blower will have to be shuttered in the second test to insure it doesn't rob energy from the system. That won't give me raw horsepower, but it will give me a solid ratio of power difference between the two.? ? Any ideas on what I should do, not do, or do differently? I'm still technically in the planning stages, so I would appreciate any and all input.? ? --? Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/? Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html? ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. 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Ernest,
All that the leaf blower is is the compressor scroll of a turbo charger. many of the aircraft superchargers, circa WW2 used a centrifugal supercharger which is exactly what you are describing.  Think you will find it more trouble than it's worth. Mainly due to breakage of the parts at high RPMs. You will have to design your own drive, and it is a drive even if simply a shaft connection. You would probably find a belt driven centrifugal supercharger and using a underdriven (reducing) system. You will find a supercharged 13B will make 200 HP very easily.
Bill Jepson  


-----Original Message-----
From: Ernest Christley <echristley@nc.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:41 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Supercharging

wrjjrs@aol.com wrote: 
> Ernest, No that isn't true. I agree that any supercharging method > certainly adds complication. The MAJOR difference is that a > SUPERcharger, rather than a turbo requires additional careful > engineering to enable the DRIVE for the blower to survive. A turbo > must be mounted itself, but the drive is simple, even if the plumbing > isn't. 
> Cheers, 
> Bill 
> 
 
Ed Anderson wrote: 
> Depending on the compressor type used on the supercharger your > efficiency can drop down to below 50% (some of the older roots type > expellers) , the centrifugal compressors (which can be on super or > turbochargers) are generally higher efficiency (can approach 75%) in > converting input energy into high pressure air. So a bit more efficient. 
 
I'm going to sidestep Ed's argument about using energy before or after it has been converted to mechanical energy, because just thinking about it is making my head hurt. Instead, I'll move on to the type of blower and it's mounting. I spoke about this at the Rotary Roundup a couple of years ago. Tom is just about through with machining the parts, and I'm about through building my fuselage, so I should have real hardware to test with "Real Soon Now"(TM). 
 
The rotary is unique among aircraft engines, in that we have 6000 shaft RPM to work with. Normally, that is considered a liability, in that it requires an extra gearbox to drop the RPM to a range usable by a propeller; but, supercharging is a case where I believe we can make some lemonade.  
6000RPM is about the speed that commercial leaf blowers use. The blowers just happen to be about the same size as an engine housing. A conservative blower will easily deliver 600 CFM at 150MPH. We don't usually want a LOT of boost in an airplane, since that will impact reliability, but how much is a LOT? The typical supercharger is heavy, requiring some major engineering to produce a reliable mount and drive system. A turbo carries its own list of issues, not the least of which is blowing the intake air across a hot exhaust component. A blower, mounted as an integral part of the flywheel and enclosed by the bell housing, would sidestep most of the problems. It won't deliver a LOT of boost, but neither will it require pop-off valves, waste-gates, intercoolers or a heavy mounting system. I will consider it a win, if I can get 200Hp at 7000RPM. 
 
Richard Sohn asked me at the Round-up about how would I know if it works. I had to think about that one. The answer is that I will provide for an alternate air intake (at least temporarily). I will do a pull test, while running the engine with air being pulled through the blower and through the alternate air intake. The blower will have to be shuttered in the second test to insure it doesn't rob energy from the system. That won't give me raw horsepower, but it will give me a solid ratio of power difference between the two. 
 
Any ideas on what I should do, not do, or do differently? I'm still technically in the planning stages, so I would appreciate any and all input. 
 
-- 
Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ 
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