X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [66.219.56.248] (HELO qnsi-xch.qnsi.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2c1) with ESMTP id 2456206 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 05 Nov 2007 09:01:35 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.219.56.248; envelope-from=bhughes@qnsi.net Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Return-Receipt-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C81FB4.335FFE44" Disposition-Notification-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Boost without intercooler [was MAP port location] Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 08:00:18 -0600 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Boost without intercooler [was MAP port location] Thread-Index: Acgfsg67GKuIQpmDR1enj7aLBu5b0QAAHKFQ From: "Bobby J. Hughes" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C81FB4.335FFE44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, =20 With the 40% bypass I believe I will only have a temp rise of 30-40 degrees in take off conditions. So 140 degrees with 100 OAT. At 8K altitude we typically see 68-70 degrees in the summer. So making 4 pounds of boost should net temps in the 150 - 160 degree range. This is based on Eaton's M62 4th gen charts. This may be too close for comfort. I will be doing extensive ground testing and measuring charge temps. I have to admit my initial plan was to locate the injectors about 12-14" away from the rotors to take advantage of fuel cooling. Marks S 's. at that location would frost the tubes until he moved them closer. I have since switch to the stock lower renesis manifold.=20 =20 I am not committed to the current arrangement but I do intent to test it on the ground. I already have a plan for an intercooler and plumbing.=20 =20 Bobby =20 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 6:42 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Boost without intercooler [was MAP port location] Hi Bobby, =20 I won't add to the caution about detonation due to high temps of intake charge, However, I will mention that Tracy Crook sells apex seals that are highly resistant to detonation. In fact, I don't believe even the drag racers with high boost levels have succeeded in breaking one. Under detonation they at worst deform - but don't break. =20 Not to suggest that you can use those seals and have no worry, there are other areas than apex seals that detonation can damage. =20 =20 There is a school of thought that says using high compression (pistons) with turbo/super charging gives you the best of both worlds. You get the strong initial pick up due to the high compression pistons without the (sometimes momentary delay) waiting for boost to come up. The combustion chamber treats boost as basically increasing the compression ratio. It entire thing is combustion chamber pressure (however, it gets there). High compression/low boost or low boost/high compression - it doesn't make a difference to the engine. The total pressure is all the engine knows. =20 However, if you are using high compression rotor/pistons then you do not have as much margin as low compression rotors would give you. =20 =20 Having a supercharger rather than a turbocharger also helps as there is no migration of heat from the very hot turbine housing over to the compressor housing. But, you still have the temp increase due to compression. =20 =20 I would certainly be cautious on the boost. Those who are using turbochargers and have had long term success appear to generally use less than 5" Hg of boost. =20 Good luck and we are all waiting to see your success =20 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: cbeazley =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 2:43 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Boost without intercooler [was MAP port location] Hi Bobby; I have seen several turbo "detonation danger" charts over the years. Heck if I can find any of them now. Some searching should turn one up.=20 Detonation also depends on engine load - ask Lynn about NA detonation at idle speeds. =09 Here is a link to a calculator: http://www.turbofast.com.au/javacalc.html How to avoid detonation: http://www.misterfixit.com/deton.htm =09 According to most information, 3mm apex seals will not save you from detonation in a wankel, at best something else in the chain will break. If you insist on running without an intercooler you better have knock sensors with a fuel cut defender or the like. You might also look into methanol, ethanol, water injection to cool the intake charge. The wankel has a lot of positives, survival with detonation is not one of them. =09 Good Luck Cary =09 =09 Bobby, I know your planning only normalizing with the Turbo, but my concern with the 10:1 high compression rotors is that you might get into detonation - especially without an intercooler. Then again I'm no expert, that why I would like to know the safe boost level as well. I recommended the 3mm apex seals because of my concerns of detonation, not so much the loss of hp. George ( down under) George, =20 Mazfix and Mazsport are both boosting to 280hp at the wheels. http://mazfix.com.au/perfproducts/rx8_upgrades.html. Pettit Racing is seeing 270+ with 5-8#'s http://www.pettitracing.com/rx8/index.htm My goal has always been to match the IO540 at 8000ft and have a much lighter plane with new engine. No doubt I will be giving up some HP without the intercooler. One percent for every 10 degrees I think. If my cooling ducts and exit area work as planned I may add an intercooler. The goal now is to get the engine started and flying by summer.=20 =20 =20 Bobby RV10=20 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 3:41 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: MAP port location \=20 =09 =09 Bobby, I would be interested to see what boost is safe also. You might consider an intercooler! I assume you are using it on a RX8 engine( i.e. 10:1 ), if so, you could always consider going to 3mm apex seals, if you feel it would be safer. George (down under) =20 Not much to tell Rob. It's an Eaton M62 4th gen. http://www.capa.com.au/eaton_mp62_4th.htm My notes show the weight at 25 lbs but I am not sure if that included mounting brackets. If everything goes as planned I should be able to fire it up in January. The plan is to use it for normalization or 1-2 psi of boost if the discharge temps are not to high. It has a 1" internal bypass that provides a intake air path around the screws so it is yet to be seen what effect this will have on temps. =20 =20 Does anyone have any real data as to maximum safe intake temps with 10:1 rotors and 2mm seals? =20 =20 Bobby =20 =20 =20 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Rob Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 9:39 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: MAP port location \=20 =09 =09 Bobby Tell us a little about your supercharger. What brand? How much? How heavy? Have you run it yet? Thanks. Robert 20B in a BD4 =20 Robert Bollinger FM1099 MUM Fairfield, IA 52557 rob@mum.edu =20 Home (641)472-7000ex2068 Cell (641)919-3213 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bobby J. Hughes =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 5:09 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: MAP port location \=20 Looks like the consensus is to place the MAP ports away from the runners. I will try the discharge duct of the supercharger for both MAP and the Grand Rapids EIS temperature probe. Looks like the EC2 temperature probe should not be place after the blower since it leans fuel at higher air temps. It will go after the air filter and before the throttle body. =20 Thanks, =20 Bobby =09 ________________________________ =09 =09 =09 =09 ________________________________ =09 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C81FB4.335FFE44 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All,
 
With the 40% bypass I believe I will only = have a temp=20 rise of 30-40 degrees in take off conditions. So 140 degrees with = 100 OAT.=20 At 8K altitude we typically see  68-70 degrees in the summer. So = making 4=20 pounds of boost should net temps in the 150 - 160 degree range. This is = based on=20 Eaton's M62 4th gen charts. This may be too close for comfort. I will be = doing=20 extensive ground testing and measuring charge temps. I have to admit my = initial=20 plan was to locate the injectors about 12-14" away from the rotors to = take=20 advantage of  fuel cooling. Marks S 's. at that location = would frost=20 the tubes until he moved them closer. I have since switch to the stock = lower=20 renesis manifold.
 
I am not committed to the current = arrangement but=20 I do intent to test it on the ground. I already have a plan for an = intercooler=20 and plumbing.
 
Bobby
 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 6:42 AM
To: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Boost without = intercooler=20 [was MAP port location]

Hi Bobby,
 
I won't add to the caution about detonation due = to high=20 temps of intake charge,  However, I will mention that Tracy Crook = sells=20 apex seals that are highly resistant to detonation.  In fact, I = don't=20 believe even the drag racers with high boost levels have succeeded in = breaking=20 one.  Under detonation they at worst deform - but don't = break.
 
Not to suggest that you can use those seals and = have no=20 worry, there are other areas than apex seals that detonation can = damage. =20
 
There is a school of thought that says using = high=20 compression (pistons) with turbo/super charging gives you the best of = both=20 worlds.  You get the strong initial pick up due to the high = compression=20 pistons without the (sometimes momentary delay) waiting for boost to = come=20 up.  The combustion chamber treats boost as basically increasing = the=20 compression ratio.  It entire thing is combustion chamber pressure=20 (however, it gets there).  High compression/low boost or low = boost/high=20 compression - it doesn't make a difference to the engine.  The = total=20 pressure is all the engine knows.
 
However, if you are using high compression = rotor/pistons=20 then you do not have as much margin as low compression rotors would give = you. 
 
Having a supercharger rather than a turbocharger = also=20 helps as there is no migration of heat from the very hot turbine housing = over to=20 the compressor housing. But, you still have the temp increase due = to=20 compression.  
 
 I would certainly be cautious on the = boost. =20 Those who are using turbochargers and have had long term success appear = to=20 generally use less than 5" Hg of boost.
 
Good luck and we are all waiting to see your=20 success
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 cbeazley
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 = 2:43=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Boost = without=20 intercooler [was MAP port location]

Hi Bobby;
I have seen several turbo "detonation = danger"=20 charts over the years.  Heck if I can find any of them = now.
Some=20 searching should turn one up.
Detonation also depends on engine = load - ask=20 Lynn about NA detonation at idle speeds.

Here is a link = to a=20 calculator:
    http://www.turbofast.c= om.au/javacalc.html
How=20 to avoid detonation:
    http://www.misterfixit.com/= deton.htm

According=20 to most information, 3mm apex seals will not save you from detonation = in a=20 wankel,
at best something else in the chain will break.
If you = insist on=20 running without an intercooler you better have knock sensors with a = fuel cut=20 defender or the like.
You might also look into methanol, ethanol, = water=20 injection to cool the intake charge.
The wankel has a lot of = positives,=20 survival with detonation is not one of them.

Good = Luck
Cary

Bobby,
I know your planning only = normalizing with the=20 Turbo, but my concern with the 10:1 high compression rotors is that = you=20 might get into detonation - especially without an = intercooler.
Then again I'm no expert, that why = I would like=20 to know the safe boost level as well.
I recommended the 3mm apex seals = because=20 of my concerns of detonation, not so much the loss of=20 hp.
George ( down under)
George,
 
Mazfix and Mazsport are both boosting to = 280hp at the=20 wheels. http://mazfix.com.au/perfproducts/rx8_upgrades.html.&= nbsp;=20 Pettit Racing is seeing 270+ with 5-8#'s  http://www.pettitracing.com/rx8/index.htm =  My goal=20 has always been to match the IO540 at 8000ft and have a much lighter = plane with new engine. No doubt I will be giving up some HP = without the=20 intercooler. One percent for every 10 degrees I think. If = my=20 cooling ducts and exit area work as planned I may add an = intercooler. The=20 goal now is to get the engine started and flying by summer.=20
 
 
Bobby
RV10

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net]=20 On Behalf Of George Lendich
Sent: Thursday, = November 01,=20 2007 3:41 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: MAP port location \

Bobby,
I would be interested to see what = boost is safe=20 also. You might consider an intercooler!
I assume you are using it on a RX8 = engine( i.e.=20 10:1 ), if so, you could always consider going to 3mm apex seals, if = you=20 feel it would be safer.
George (down under)
 
Not much to tell Rob. It's an Eaton M62 4th gen. http://www.capa.com.au/eaton_mp62_4th.htm  = My notes=20 show the weight at 25 lbs but I am not sure if that included = mounting=20 brackets.  If everything goes as planned I should be able to = fire it up=20 in January. The plan is to use it for normalization or 1-2 psi of = boost if=20 the discharge temps are not to high. It has a 1" internal bypass = that=20 provides a intake air path around the screws so it is yet to be seen = what=20 effect this will have on temps. 
 
Does anyone have any real data as to = maximum safe=20 intake temps with 10:1 rotors and 2mm seals?   =
 
Bobby
 
 
 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net]=20 On Behalf Of Rob
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 = 9:39=20 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: MAP port location \

Bobby
Tell us a little about your = supercharger. What=20 brand? How much? How heavy? Have you run it yet?
Thanks.
Robert
20B in a BD4
 
Robert Bollinger
FM1099 MUM
Fairfield, IA 52557
rob@mum.edu  =
Home=20 (641)472-7000ex2068
Cell     = (641)919-3213
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 5:09 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: MAP port location \

Looks like the=20 consensus is to place the MAP ports away from the runners. I will = try the=20 discharge duct of the supercharger for both MAP and the Grand Rapids = EIS=20 temperature probe. Looks like the EC2 temperature probe should not = be place=20 after the blower since it leans fuel at higher air temps. It will go = after=20 the air filter and before the throttle body.
 
Thanks,
 
Bobby

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