X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail15.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.196] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTPS id 2392525 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:58:42 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.196; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d220-236-230-45.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.236.230.45]) by mail15.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id l9HMvtdg006823 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:57:56 +1000 Message-ID: <001401c81111$28f35110$2de6ecdc@george> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2 20B Injector Power Circuits Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:57:56 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C81164.F996CAB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0657-0, 12/12/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C81164.F996CAB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob,=20 If you don't remember, I will remind you to tell us when the time of = engine testing comes about. I've got a feeling that a 2" into 4" and = then into 12 outlets will make the sound quite deep and the extra length = will scrub down the exhaust sound -I'd be surprised it didn't work well = for your application. George ( down under) George, Havent started it yet. Hope to by the end of the year. Each fo the 2" = outlets actuall have a 1" exhaust port in each of them. I'm hoping for = some muffler action by doing that. I cant wait to hear it, but I wont = fire it untill I think everything is ready. Bob Mears Supermarine Spitfire -----Original Message----- From: George Lendich To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 5:29 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2 20B Injector Power Circuits Bob, Have you had the engine running with those exhausts - do they cut the = noise down any. I certainly like the look of the exhausts especially for = that type of plane, but wonder if you discovered any advantage in = multiple outlets. George (down under) I'm thinking I purchased after the snubber update. Is there a = certain date of manufacturer that insures me of this? I dont remember = the date on the box, its at home and I'm screwing around on the computer = at work instead of working ;)...I do know that my unit already has the = right choke installed. Bob Mears Supermarine Spitfire -----Original Message----- From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 9:33 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2 20B Injector Power Circuits Bob, I don't know when you last updated your EC2 but if you have = the snubber update already, there is no need to update again due to the = diode and staging relay changes being discussed here. These changes are = to parts external to the EC2. If it is not clear to you where to add = the diodes and relay by looking at the schematic I posted, feel free to = ask for specifics. I want your project to succeed almost as much as = you do. =20 If you don't have the snubber update, I would highly recommend that = you get it prior to any engine testing or tuning. Tracy Crook =20 On 10/17/07, bmears9413@aol.com wrote:=20 So does this mean I shouldnt finish installing my EC2 cause I may = have to send it back to Tracy? Nows the time for me. I'm installing now. = Bob Mears Supermarine Spitfire -----Original Message----- From: Joe Ewen To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 10:28 pm=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2 20B Injector Power Circuits Hi Bob, Don't know if you don't ask. A diode is a device that allows = current to flow only in one direction (DC circuit.) Schottky is a = particular diode construction. One desirable feature of a Schottky is = that it has a low forward voltage drop. All diodes have a drop in = voltage (like a small resistor.) In this case, the lower voltage drop = allows the injectors to continue firing slightly longer than other diode = types in the event of an alternator failure and lowering battery = voltage.=20 On the 20B, the injector control lines are wired together, = installing the diodes prevents the current / voltage from back feeding = between the primary and secondary circuits and the possible failure = modes I noted earlier. Application of diode(s) in this manner is = typically referred to as isolation diodes.=20 Since the EC2 controller internal jumps the 2 controller power = feeds, I installed isolation diodes (Schottky) to prevent similar = problems between the 2 supply circuits. You may also find diodes useful in making annunciator press to = test circuits. If you have 2 devices such as a transponder and a GPS = that both need to share altitude encoder inputs, isolation diodes would = be used. Of course with any avionics installations, follow the = manufactures guidelines.=20 Joe ----- Original Message -----=20 From: bob.kaufmann=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 10:16 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2 20B Injector Power Circuits =20 Al=20 Hate to continue to display my ignorance but what is a Schottky = diodes. When it comes to electronics I'm as dumb as a stump. Bob K From: Rotary motors in aircraft [ = mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al Gietzen Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 5:42 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2 20B Injector Power Circuits=20 Joe; You are right. We discovered this crossfeed issue some time = back. Is applies only to the 20B version as the 13B has separate = drivers for each set. Install Schottky diodes in the circuits for each = injector. Tracy is aware of this, and has installed the diodes in his = as well.=20 Al -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [ = mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Joe Ewen Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 3:20 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] EC2 20B Injector Power Circuits=20 I have been testing my wiring harness from the EC2. I found a = behavior that I did not expect. The manual drawing (EC2 manual) show a = single injector supply that splits at the Injector primary and secondary = disable switches. On my installation, I have 2 separate feeder = circuits, supply Primary comes from battery 1, and supply Secondary = comes from battery 2. I did this for redundancy. If I had a failure = such as a short to ground in either circuit, its related overload should = trip, but the other circuit should remain active. =20 While testing the injector circuits, I noticed what I would term = an abnormality. With both injector disable switches in the enable = position, I turned on the power for the primary circuit (I have LED = indicators on all circuits that annunciate power present) and the = secondary circuit also showed power present even though the power switch = for the secondary circuit was off. The same is true when the secondary = circuit is engaged and the primary is off. =20 Initially this led me to think I had miss wired something in the = circuit. After checking out the wiring, I found no issues. So I took a = closer look at the wiring diagram in the manual. It turns out the power = was being back feed through the injectors to the opposite circuit. On = the 20B version of the EC2, the injector control lines for each rotors = injectors are junctioned going into the EC2. For example the Rotor 1 = Primary and Secondary control lines are junctioned into a single input = point at the EC2. =20 I can see several situations where this may lead to undesirable = operation. For example, if the Primary circuit had a hard short to = ground, it would take out the primary circuit's overload (CB or Fuse.) = Since the primary and secondary circuits are electrically connected on = the control line, the other circuit would also trip. Another situation = that could occur is a medium to high resistance short. Current would = then flow uncontrolled through the unaffected circuit's injector to the = affected circuit's injector then to the resistance short. This could = keep both injectors on 100%. While this situation is unlikely, it seems = possible.=20 I believe the 13B version uses separate control lines for each = injector, so this in not likely to be an issue on the 13B version. It appears that isolation diodes are needed to prevent these = possible problems. Before making any changes I have to look the circuit = over more closely, as well as a call to Tracy on the next service day. = My question to the group, especially anyone with a 20B, is am I looking = at this wrong?=20 Thanks, Joe -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL = Mail! =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL = Mail! -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.13/1074 - Release Date: = 16/10/2007 2:14 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.0/1076 - Release Date: = 17/10/2007 7:53 PM ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C81164.F996CAB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob,
If you don't remember, I will remind = you to tell us=20 when the time of engine testing comes about. I've got a feeling that a = 2" into=20 4" and then into 12 outlets will make the sound quite deep and the extra = length=20 will scrub down the exhaust sound -I'd be surprised it didn't work well = for your=20 application.
George ( down under)
George,
Havent=20 started it yet. Hope to by the end of the year. Each fo the 2" outlets = actuall=20 have a 1" exhaust port in each of them. I'm hoping for some muffler = action by=20 doing that. I cant wait to hear it, but I wont fire it untill I think=20 everything is ready.

Bob Mears
Supermarine=20 Spitfire


-----Original Message-----
From: George Lendich = <lendich@optusnet.com.au>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 5:29=20 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2 20B Injector Power Circuits

 Bob,
Have you had the engine running with = those=20 exhausts - do they cut the noise down any. I certainly like the look = of the=20 exhausts especially for that type of plane, but wonder if you = discovered=20 any advantage in multiple outlets.
George (down under)
I'm=20 thinking I purchased after the snubber update. Is there a certain = date of=20 manufacturer that insures me of this? I dont remember the date on = the box,=20 its at home and I'm screwing around on the computer at work instead = of=20 working ;)...I do know that my unit already has the right choke=20 installed.

Bob Mears
Supermarine = Spitfire


-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Tracy Crook <tracy@rotaryaviation.com>=
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Wed, 17 Oct 2007 9:33 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2 20B = Injector Power=20 Circuits

Bob,  I don't know when you last updated your EC2 but if = you have=20 the snubber update already, there is no need to update again due to = the=20 diode and staging relay changes being discussed here.  These = changes=20 are to parts external to the EC2.  If it is not clear to you = where to=20 add the diodes and relay by looking at the schematic I posted, feel = free to=20 ask for specifics.   I want your project to succeed almost = as much=20 as you do. 
 
If you don't have the snubber update, I would highly recommend = that you=20 get it prior to any engine testing or tuning.
 
Tracy Crook

 
On 10/17/07, bmears9413@aol.com <bmears9413@aol.com> = wrote:=20
So=20 does this mean I shouldnt finish installing my EC2 cause I may = have to=20 send it back to Tracy? Nows the time for me. I'm installing now.=20

Bob Mears
Supermarine Spitfire


-----Original = Message-----
From: Joe Ewen <Jewen@comporium.net = >
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Sun, 14 Oct 2007 10:28 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2 20B = Injector=20 Power Circuits

Hi Bob,
Don't know if you don't = ask.  A diode is=20 a device that allows current to flow only in one direction (DC=20 circuit.)  Schottky is a particular diode construction.  = One=20 desirable feature of a Schottky is that it has a low forward = voltage=20 drop.  All diodes have a drop in voltage (like a small=20 resistor.)  In this case, the lower voltage drop allows the = injectors=20 to continue firing slightly longer than other diode types in the = event of=20 an alternator failure and lowering battery voltage.
 
On the 20B, the injector control = lines are=20 wired together, installing the diodes prevents the current / = voltage from=20 back feeding between the primary and secondary circuits and the = possible=20 failure modes I noted earlier.  Application of diode(s) in = this=20 manner is typically referred to as isolation diodes.
 
Since the EC2 controller internal = jumps the 2=20 controller power feeds, I installed isolation diodes (Schottky) to = prevent=20 similar problems between the 2 supply circuits.
 
You may also find diodes useful = in=20 making annunciator press to test circuits.  If you have = 2=20 devices such as a transponder and a GPS that both need to = share=20 altitude encoder inputs, isolation diodes would be used.  Of = course=20 with any avionics installations, follow the manufactures = guidelines.=20
 
Joe
----- Original Message ----- =
From: bob.kaufmann
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Sunday, October 14, = 2007=20 10:16 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = EC2 20B=20 Injector Power Circuits

 
Al =
 
Hate to = continue to=20 display my ignorance but what is a Schottky diodes.  When = it comes=20 to electronics I'm as dumb as a stump.
 
Bob = K
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [=20 mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al=20 Gietzen
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 5:42 = PM
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2 = 20B=20 Injector Power Circuits
 
Joe;
 
You are = right.  We=20 discovered this crossfeed issue some time back.  Is applies = only to=20 the 20B version as the 13B has separate drivers for each set.=20  Install Schottky diodes in the circuits for each = injector. =20 Tracy is aware of this, and has installed the diodes in his as = well.=20
 
Al
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft [=20 mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Joe=20 Ewen
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 3:20 = PM
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] EC2 20B = Injector Power Circuits
 
I have=20 been testing my wiring harness from the EC2.  I found a = behavior=20 that I did not expect.  The manual drawing (EC2 manual) = show a=20 single injector supply that splits at the Injector primary and = secondary=20 disable switches.  On my installation, I have 2 separate = feeder=20 circuits, supply Primary comes from battery 1, and supply = Secondary=20 comes from battery 2.  I did this for redundancy.  If = I had a=20 failure such as a short to ground in either circuit, its related = overload should trip, but the other circuit should remain = active. =20
 
While=20 testing the injector circuits, I noticed what I would term an=20 abnormality.  With both injector disable switches in the = enable=20 position, I turned on the power for the primary circuit (I have = LED=20 indicators on all circuits that annunciate power present) and = the=20 secondary circuit also showed power present even though the = power switch=20 for the secondary circuit was off.  The same is true when = the=20 secondary circuit is engaged and the primary is off. =20
 
Initially=20 this led me to think I had miss wired something in the = circuit. =20 After checking out the wiring, I found no issues.  So I = took a=20 closer look at the wiring diagram in the manual.  It turns = out the=20 power was being back feed through the injectors to the opposite=20 circuit.  On the 20B version of the EC2, the injector = control lines=20 for each rotors injectors are junctioned going into the = EC2.  For=20 example the Rotor 1 Primary and Secondary control lines are = junctioned=20 into a single input point at the EC2. 
 
I can see=20 several situations where this may lead to undesirable = operation. =20 For example, if the Primary circuit had a hard short to ground, = it would=20 take out the primary circuit's overload (CB or Fuse.)  = Since the=20 primary and secondary circuits are electrically connected on the = control=20 line, the other circuit would also trip.  Another situation = that=20 could occur is a medium to high resistance short.  Current = would=20 then flow uncontrolled through the unaffected circuit's injector = to the=20 affected circuit's injector then to the resistance short.  = This=20 could keep both injectors on 100%.  While this situation is = unlikely, it seems possible.
 
I=20 believe the 13B version uses separate control lines for = each=20 injector, so this in not likely to be an issue on the 13B=20 version.
 
It appears=20 that isolation diodes are needed to prevent these possible=20 problems.  Before making any changes I have to look the = circuit=20 over more closely, as well as a call to Tracy on the next = service=20 day.  My question to the group, especially anyone with a = 20B, is am=20 I looking at this wrong?
 
Thanks,
Joe
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL = Mail!
 

Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by = AVG Free=20 Edition.
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.13/1074 - = Release=20 Date: 16/10/2007 2:14 PM

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free = Edition.
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.0/1076 - = Release Date:=20 17/10/2007 7:53 PM
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