X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2366488 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 12:53:15 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 ([24.74.103.61]) by cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com with SMTP id <20071003165236.LDMH3965.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@edward2> for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:52:36 +0000 Message-ID: <003301c805dd$d33ab350$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Problem? [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:52:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0030_01C805BC.4BF706D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C805BC.4BF706D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, too hot for that rpm, I agree. Assuming you followed the good suggestions offered by Al, Lynn and = others regarding getting all the air out of the block - really = important! I almost cooked engines two times because of excess air in = the coolant system. Here is something that may quickly tell you = something about the air you may have in the system. I can't recall what type of radiator set up you have, but with the Two = GM cores I use which are mounted vertically, you can touch the side tank = of the radiator and determine if there is air in the system. In my = case, if I do a complete drain and refill of the system, on the first = run up the core's tanks will be hot approx 2/3 of the way up and then = they are much cooler - indicating that the remaining 1/3 of my core is = filled with air. It generally takes me 3 runups reaching 5000 rpm = before I can touch the core tanks and find them hot all the way from = top to bottom. So depending on your radiator set up that might be = something you can quickly check. If the mixture is too lean, you can get a backfire out the intake, too = rich and its generally the exhaust - where unburned fuel cooks off. So = that and black smoke would indicate to me too rich a mixture. I = presume you do not have an Air/Fuel ratio indicator - strongly recommend = you get one, that tells you right away whether you are running rich or = lean. Even a cheap one can be a tremendous help in finding out whether = too rich or too lean. One thing you may want to check is your ignition timing. If using = Tracy's EC2 you need to set the static timing around 35 Deg BTDC. The = EC2 backs off 10 deg from that (25Deb BTDC) as its default starting = point for ignition timing. So if you set the static timing to say 25 = Deg then the EC2 would be having the engine operate at a 25 - 10 deg =3D = 15 Deg BTDC which is pretty retarded timing for the rotary. OR if you = set it too far advanced then the timing might be too advanced. So just recheck it when you get the chance. Another possibility is your injection system might not be staging = properly. IF that were the case, the engine might work fine below the = staging point but not above it. Could possibly be a sticking secondary = injector (if too rich or lean). But, that is a bit down the likely = list. Something impeding the fuel flow might provide sufficient fuel = and low rpm but not sufficient to run at high rpm. Hope some of this helps Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 11:23 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Problem? [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water = Pressure Ed, this is at about 2000 rpm. Like a fast idle. I am getting all = kinds of fuel cut like stoppages if I try to run the engine faster. I = haven't seen more than about 3700 rpm, but I just started it and have = not tried to tune anything. I figure I will have to run longer to get = it tuned and the cooling is holding that back. =20 Speaking of that, you guys were talking a while back about the effects = you see when the engine is too lean, or too rich. Talking about = backfires, etc and what each effect represents. I have forgotten what = means what.senior days, not moments! Do any of you remember how that went? I am having some problems = getting started and am not certain if I am too rich or too lean. I am = getting backfires out the exhaust at times and smoke from the exhaust at = that time. (black) I ran the batteries down yesterday trying to get started due to this. = When I originally started the engine, I flooded it. I am trying to = prevent this now and am concerned that I may not be using enough = mixture. =20 Bill B =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 10:05 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Problem? [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure =20 Bill,=20 =20 You indicate you get overheating after 10-15 minutes run time. I may = have missed it, but is this at idle, max throttle or what. Also what is = your OAT. If at idle or low power then, yes what you are seeing is not = what it should be. On the other hand, if at WOT or high power settings, = then 10-15 minutes run time would be indication of a great cooling = capacity. I can not run my engine more than a minute or two at WOT on a = 80F day without temps getting into the 200F range. But, that is at = 5800-6000 rpm. At idle, the temps stabilize and I can idle all day with = safe temps. =20 My coolant system runs with no air cushion and yes, I get a hydraulic = "lock" pressure reading of as high as 25 psi immediately upon engine = start up. After a 30 - 60 seconds of running the pressure drops down = to zero and then after a few minutes running builds back up as the = coolant warms up to operating temperatures. =20 =20 Plenty of suggestion have been made about what to check - all good. =20 =20 Good luck. =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Wick=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 9:30 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure =20 Bill, the definitive test is the one I described below. Really = encourage you to do it as described. Resist assumptions. Convert your = ideas to measurements. =20 -al wick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 6:08 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure =20 I think that I would see air under the radiator cap if I had a = compression gas leak? I never see any air.=20 To check a piston engine for head gasket leaks, you would put the = cylinder at TDC and pressurize the cylinder to about 150 lbs with = compressed air and check the radiator for air bubbles.How do you check a = rotary? I will check the pressure sender against a mechanical gage. =20 There is obviously a heating problem, but I think the pressure is = higher than it should be until just ready to boil. I shut the engine = off at 210*, and at 22+ lbs, the boiling point should be well above = 250*?? =20 Thanks for the suggestions of where to look, guys. =20 Bill B =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al p Wick Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 7:49 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure =20 Your coolant reservoir should be above engine.=20 =20 1) If it is, remove two cups of air from the reservoir. Then = repeat your test.=20 2) If you now see pressure rise above 22 psi within 5 minutes of = cold start, you clearly have compression gases leaking into cooling = system or bad gage. =20 3) Air in the block is 10 times more significant than any other = cooling factor. Make darn sure you don't have any. It causes local = boiling, high temps, strange behavior. =20 Operating with two cups of air under cap is an important safety = and diagnosis advantage. Everyone should do it. With that two cups, you = only see 22 psi if you have a genuine problem. You only see 0 psi if you = have genuine problem. The pressure is then a very fast and reliable = indicator of system integrity. So two cups of air has no negative effect = on system efficiency, just a substantial improvement in safety. Only = time it could be a negative would be if your reservoir was way too = small, way too low, or flowed way too much coolant. =20 Since you describe high temps AND pressure, I suspect you have = temperature problem. =20 I deliberately overheated my engine many times so that I was = intimate with pressure and temperature patterns. Then tested various = concepts. Don't recommend you do the same. =20 -al wick =20 =20 On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:38:55 -0400 "Bill Bradburry" = writes: I just recently got my Renesis started again after finishing my = cowl. I seem to be getting very high coolant pressures. I can only run = the engine about 10-15 minutes before hitting the redline at 210*. My = water pressure is at 27 Lbs at that time. I only have a 22 Lb radiator = cap, so I assume that I am blowing into the recovery tank, but I have = not confirmed that. My oil temp has never exceeded about 165*. It = might have gone higher if I could have run longer??? =20 This whole water pressure thing has me a little baffled. Since = this is a closed system and the only way pressure can build is due to = the expansion of the coolant after heating???, I am confused by some = comments that have been made from time to time. I remember something = that Tracy said about his pressure would build for a time, then go to = zero. It seems to me that the pressure should correlate to the temp = pretty closely since it is a closed system??=20 =20 Can someone enlighten me a little on the science of this = pressure? It seems to me that there could be some pressure build up on = the positive side of the pump, but it would go negative on the suction = side, so the net effect of the pump should be close to zero?? =20 Also, my Renesis had only 1800 miles on it when I bought it, so = I did not have to tear it down. As a result, I am somewhat in the dark = as to how the water flows through the system. Could someone help me = with that? I had to remove the thermostat tower for height clearance , = so I made an adapter plate that takes water from the top outlet of the = pump and sends it to the radiator (double pass), then from the radiator, = it returns to the lower inlet of the pump. =20 Thanks, Bill B =20 -al wick Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and = cam timing.=20 Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from = Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk = assessment info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html -Al Wick Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and = cam timing.=20 Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, = Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment = info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C805BC.4BF706D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, too hot for that rpm, I agree.
 
Assuming  you followed the good suggestions = offered=20 by Al, Lynn and others regarding getting all the air out of the block - = really=20 important!  I almost cooked engines two times because of excess air = in the=20 coolant system.  Here is something that  may quickly tell you=20 something about the air you may have in the system.
 
  I can't recall what type of radiator set = up you=20 have, but with the Two GM cores I use which are mounted vertically, = you can=20 touch the side tank of the radiator and determine if there is air = in the=20 system.  In my case, if I do a complete drain and refill = of the=20 system, on the first run up the core's tanks  will be hot approx = 2/3 of the=20 way up and then they are much cooler - indicating that the remaining 1/3 = of my=20 core is filled with air.  It generally takes me 3 runups = reaching 5000=20 rpm before I can touch  the core tanks and find them hot all = the way=20 from top to bottom.  So depending on your radiator set up that = might be=20 something you can quickly check.
 
If the mixture is too lean, you can get a = backfire out the=20 intake, too rich and its generally the exhaust - where unburned fuel = cooks=20 off.  So that and black smoke would indicate to me  too rich a = mixture.  I presume you do not have an Air/Fuel ratio indicator - = strongly=20 recommend you get one, that tells you right away whether you are running = rich or=20 lean.  Even a cheap one can be a tremendous help in finding out = whether too=20 rich or too lean.
 
One thing you may want to check is your ignition = timing.  If using Tracy's EC2 you need to set the static timing = around 35=20 Deg BTDC.  The EC2 backs off 10 deg from that (25Deb BTDC) as its = default=20 starting point for ignition timing.  So if you set the static = timing to say=20 25 Deg then the EC2 would be having the engine operate at a 25 - 10 deg = =3D 15 Deg=20 BTDC which is pretty retarded timing for the  rotary.  OR if = you set=20 it too far advanced then the timing might be too advanced.
So just recheck it when you get the = chance.
 
Another possibility is your injection system = might not be=20 staging properly. IF that were the case, the engine might work fine = below=20 the staging point but not above it.  Could possibly be a sticking = secondary=20 injector (if too rich or lean).   But, that is a bit down the = likely=20 list.  Something impeding the fuel flow might provide sufficient = fuel and=20 low rpm but not sufficient to run at high rpm.
 
Hope some of this helps
 
Ed
 
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary = Powered
Matthews,=20 NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.comhttp://www.andersonee.com
http:/= /members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.dmack.net/mazda= /index.html
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Bradburry
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, = 2007 11:23=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Problem?=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure

Ed, this is = at about=20 2000 rpm.  Like a fast idle.  I am getting all kinds of fuel = cut=20 like stoppages if I try to run the engine faster.  I haven=92t = seen more=20 than about 3700 rpm, but I just started it and have not tried to tune=20 anything.  I figure I will have to run longer to get it tuned and = the=20 cooling is holding that back.

 

Speaking of = that, you=20 guys were talking a while back about the effects you see when the = engine is=20 too lean, or too rich.  Talking about backfires, etc and what = each effect=20 represents.  I have forgotten what means what=85senior days, not=20 moments!

Do any of = you=20 remember how that went?  I am having some problems getting = started and am=20 not certain if I am too rich or too lean.  I am getting backfires = out the=20 exhaust at times and smoke from the exhaust at that time.=20 (black)

I ran the = batteries=20 down yesterday trying to get started due to this.  When I = originally=20 started the engine, I flooded it.  I am trying to prevent this = now and am=20 concerned that I may not be using enough = mixture.

 

Bill=20 B

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, = 2007 10:05=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Problem? = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Coolant Water Pressure

 

Bill,=20

 

You indicate you get = overheating=20 after 10-15 minutes run time.  I may have missed it, but is this = at idle,=20 max throttle or what.  Also what is your OAT.  If at idle or = low=20 power then, yes what you are seeing is not what it should be.  On = the=20 other hand, if at WOT or high power settings, then 10-15 minutes run = time=20 would be indication of a great cooling capacity.  I can not run = my engine=20 more than a minute or two at WOT on a 80F day without temps getting = into the=20 200F range.  But, that is at 5800-6000 rpm.  At idle, the = temps=20 stabilize and I can idle all day with safe=20 temps.

 

My coolant system runs = with no air=20 cushion and yes, I get a hydraulic "lock" pressure reading of as high = as 25=20 psi immediately upon engine start up.  After a 30 - 60 seconds of = running=20 the pressure  drops down to zero and then after a few = minutes=20 running builds back up as the coolant warms up to operating=20 temperatures. 

 

Plenty of suggestion = have been=20 made about what to check - all good.  =

 

Good=20 luck.

 

Ed

 

Ed Anderson
Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary=20 Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.comhttp://www.andersonee.com
http:/= /members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.dmack.net/mazda= /index.html

----- Original Message = -----=20

From: Al Wick=20

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent:=20 Wednesday, October 03, 2007 9:30 = AM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water = Pressure

 

Bill, the definitive = test is the=20 one I described below. Really encourage you to do it as described. = Resist=20 assumptions. Convert your ideas to=20 measurements.

 

-al=20 wick

----- Original = Message -----=20

From: Bill=20 Bradburry

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent:=20 Wednesday, October 03, 2007 6:08 = AM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water = Pressure

 

I think = that I=20 would see air under the radiator cap if I had a compression gas=20 leak?  I never see any air.

To = check a piston=20 engine for head gasket leaks, you would put the cylinder at TDC = and=20 pressurize the cylinder to about 150 lbs with compressed air and = check the=20 radiator for air bubbles=85How do you check a=20 rotary?

I will = check the=20 pressure sender against a mechanical gage. =20

There = is=20 obviously a heating problem, but I think the pressure is higher = than it=20 should be until just ready to boil.  I shut the engine off at = 210*,=20 and at 22+ lbs, the boiling point should be well above=20 250*??

 

Thanks = for the=20 suggestions of where to look, guys=85

 

Bill=20 B

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Al p Wick
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, = 2007 7:49=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Coolant=20 Water Pressure

 

Your coolant reservoir should be above = engine.=20

 

1) If it is, remove two cups of air from = the=20 reservoir. Then repeat your test. =

2) If you now see pressure rise = above 22 psi=20 within 5 minutes of cold start, you clearly have compression gases = leaking=20 into cooling system or bad = gage.

 

3) Air in the block is 10 times more = significant=20 than any other cooling factor. Make darn sure you don't have any. = It=20 causes local boiling, high temps, strange=20 behavior.

 

Operating with two cups of air under cap = is an=20 important safety and diagnosis advantage. Everyone should do it. = With that=20 two cups, you only see 22 psi if you have a genuine problem. You = only see=20 0 psi if you have genuine problem. The pressure is then a very = fast and=20 reliable indicator of system integrity. So two cups of air has no = negative=20 effect on system efficiency, just a substantial improvement in = safety.=20 Only time it could be a negative would be if your reservoir was = way too=20 small, way too low, or flowed way too much=20 coolant.

 

Since you describe high temps AND = pressure, I=20 suspect you have temperature = problem.

 

I deliberately overheated my engine many = times so=20 that I was intimate with pressure and temperature patterns.=20 Then tested various concepts. Don't recommend you do the=20 same.

 

-al = wick

 

 

On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:38:55 -0400 "Bill = Bradburry"=20 <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>= =20 writes:

I just recently = got my=20 Renesis started again after finishing my cowl.  I seem to = be=20 getting very high coolant pressures.  I can only run the = engine=20 about 10-15 minutes before hitting the redline at 210*.  My = water=20 pressure is at 27 Lbs at that time.  I only have a 22 Lb = radiator=20 cap, so I assume that I am blowing into the recovery tank, but I = have=20 not confirmed that.  My oil temp has never exceeded about=20 165*.  It might have gone higher if I could have run=20 longer???

 

This whole water = pressure=20 thing has me a little baffled.  Since this is a closed = system and=20 the only way pressure can build is due to the expansion of the = coolant=20 after heating???, I am confused by some comments that have been = made=20 from time to time.  I remember something that Tracy = said about=20 his pressure would build for a time, then go to zero.  It = seems to=20 me that the pressure should correlate to the temp pretty closely = since=20 it is a closed system??

 

Can someone = enlighten me a=20 little on the science of this pressure?  It seems to me = that there=20 could be some pressure build up on the positive side of the = pump, but it=20 would go negative on the suction side, so the net effect of the = pump=20 should be close to zero??

 

Also, my Renesis = had only=20 1800 miles on it when I bought it, so I did not have to tear it=20 down.  As a result, I am somewhat in the dark as to how the = water=20 flows through the system.  Could someone help me with = that?  I=20 had to remove the thermostat tower for height clearance , so I = made an=20 adapter plate that takes water from the top outlet of the pump = and sends=20 it to the radiator (double pass), then from the radiator, it = returns to=20 the lower inlet of the pump.

 

Thanks,

Bill=20 B

 


-al wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo = Subaru=20 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam timing.
Artificial = intelligence=20 in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, = Subaru=20 install, Prop construct, Risk assessment=20 = info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html

-Al Wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo = Subaru 3.0R=20 with variable valve lift and cam timing.
Artificial intelligence = in=20 cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, = Subaru=20 install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info:
htt= p://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html<= /SPAN>

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