X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.136.55.15] (HELO outbound-mail.dca.untd.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with SMTP id 2366107 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:31:08 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.55.15; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com Received: from Penny (70-59-129-110.ptld.qwest.net [70.59.129.110]) by smtpout04.vgs.untd.com with SMTP id AABDSHGMHAUYCK3A for (sender ); Wed, 3 Oct 2007 06:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: "Al Wick" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 06:30:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0062_01C80586.D4CFBDC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6000.16480 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6000.16480 X-ContentStamp: 40:20:3289430298 X-MAIL-INFO:5a2035c120548db4e1c154b5e1900d25b1790024700c8104a1304da4452d61a5818da9a9c4f49184849dc4cd64557d65c99d85c9193514d1d4c9f9e10970c4f9d4d1f960f9f49474a5dd84999dd09dd5c444192de44455cdad74501db964fde04119e4bdd9e969f99001d9e969750c0cbdb561bd00ede4fdd969b18da9303561353965f525b44000ede1c1c131543d8d9d098950 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkBSqgmtkHgEIXQOnOkVRtdSnbMwQU0thGg== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.181.42.34|smtpout04.vgs.untd.com|smtpout04.vgs.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C80586.D4CFBDC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, the definitive test is the one I described below. Really encourage = you to do it as described. Resist assumptions. Convert your ideas to = measurements. -al wick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 6:08 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure I think that I would see air under the radiator cap if I had a = compression gas leak? I never see any air.=20 To check a piston engine for head gasket leaks, you would put the = cylinder at TDC and pressurize the cylinder to about 150 lbs with = compressed air and check the radiator for air bubbles.How do you check a = rotary? I will check the pressure sender against a mechanical gage. =20 There is obviously a heating problem, but I think the pressure is = higher than it should be until just ready to boil. I shut the engine = off at 210*, and at 22+ lbs, the boiling point should be well above = 250*?? =20 Thanks for the suggestions of where to look, guys. =20 Bill B =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Al p Wick Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 7:49 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure =20 Your coolant reservoir should be above engine.=20 =20 1) If it is, remove two cups of air from the reservoir. Then repeat = your test.=20 2) If you now see pressure rise above 22 psi within 5 minutes of cold = start, you clearly have compression gases leaking into cooling system or = bad gage. =20 3) Air in the block is 10 times more significant than any other = cooling factor. Make darn sure you don't have any. It causes local = boiling, high temps, strange behavior. =20 Operating with two cups of air under cap is an important safety and = diagnosis advantage. Everyone should do it. With that two cups, you only = see 22 psi if you have a genuine problem. You only see 0 psi if you have = genuine problem. The pressure is then a very fast and reliable indicator = of system integrity. So two cups of air has no negative effect on system = efficiency, just a substantial improvement in safety. Only time it could = be a negative would be if your reservoir was way too small, way too low, = or flowed way too much coolant. =20 Since you describe high temps AND pressure, I suspect you have = temperature problem. =20 I deliberately overheated my engine many times so that I was intimate = with pressure and temperature patterns. Then tested various concepts. = Don't recommend you do the same. =20 -al wick =20 =20 On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:38:55 -0400 "Bill Bradburry" = writes: I just recently got my Renesis started again after finishing my = cowl. I seem to be getting very high coolant pressures. I can only run = the engine about 10-15 minutes before hitting the redline at 210*. My = water pressure is at 27 Lbs at that time. I only have a 22 Lb radiator = cap, so I assume that I am blowing into the recovery tank, but I have = not confirmed that. My oil temp has never exceeded about 165*. It = might have gone higher if I could have run longer??? =20 This whole water pressure thing has me a little baffled. Since this = is a closed system and the only way pressure can build is due to the = expansion of the coolant after heating???, I am confused by some = comments that have been made from time to time. I remember something = that Tracy said about his pressure would build for a time, then go to = zero. It seems to me that the pressure should correlate to the temp = pretty closely since it is a closed system??=20 =20 Can someone enlighten me a little on the science of this pressure? = It seems to me that there could be some pressure build up on the = positive side of the pump, but it would go negative on the suction side, = so the net effect of the pump should be close to zero?? =20 Also, my Renesis had only 1800 miles on it when I bought it, so I = did not have to tear it down. As a result, I am somewhat in the dark as = to how the water flows through the system. Could someone help me with = that? I had to remove the thermostat tower for height clearance , so I = made an adapter plate that takes water from the top outlet of the pump = and sends it to the radiator (double pass), then from the radiator, it = returns to the lower inlet of the pump. =20 Thanks, Bill B =20 -al wick Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam = timing.=20 Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, = Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment = info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html -Al Wick Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam = timing.=20 Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, = Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment = info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C80586.D4CFBDC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill, the definitive test is the one I = described=20 below. Really encourage you to do it as described. Resist assumptions. = Convert=20 your ideas to measurements.
 
-al wick
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Bradburry
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, = 2007 6:08=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Coolant Water=20 Pressure

I think = that I would=20 see air under the radiator cap if I had a compression gas leak?  = I never=20 see any air.

To check a = piston=20 engine for head gasket leaks, you would put the cylinder at TDC and = pressurize=20 the cylinder to about 150 lbs with compressed air and check the = radiator for=20 air bubbles=85How do you check a rotary?

I will = check the=20 pressure sender against a mechanical gage.  =

There is = obviously a=20 heating problem, but I think the pressure is higher than it should be = until=20 just ready to boil.  I shut the engine off at 210*, and at 22+ = lbs, the=20 boiling point should be well above 250*??

 

Thanks for = the=20 suggestions of where to look, guys=85

 

Bill=20 B

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Al p Wick
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 = 7:49=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Coolant Water=20 Pressure

 

Your coolant reservoir should be above = engine.=20

 

1) If it is, remove two cups of air from the = reservoir. Then repeat your test.

2) If you now see pressure rise above = 22 psi=20 within 5 minutes of cold start, you clearly have compression gases = leaking=20 into cooling system or bad gage.

 

3) Air in the block is 10 times more = significant than=20 any other cooling factor. Make darn sure you don't have any. It causes = local=20 boiling, high temps, strange = behavior.

 

Operating with two cups of air under cap is = an=20 important safety and diagnosis advantage. Everyone should do it. With = that two=20 cups, you only see 22 psi if you have a genuine problem. You only see = 0 psi if=20 you have genuine problem. The pressure is then a very fast and = reliable=20 indicator of system integrity. So two cups of air has no negative = effect on=20 system efficiency, just a substantial improvement in safety. Only time = it=20 could be a negative would be if your reservoir was way too small, way = too low,=20 or flowed way too much coolant.

 

Since you describe high temps AND pressure, = I suspect=20 you have temperature problem.

 

I deliberately overheated my engine many = times so that=20 I was intimate with pressure and temperature patterns. = Then tested=20 various concepts. Don't recommend you do the=20 same.

 

-al wick

 

 

On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:38:55 -0400 "Bill = Bradburry"=20 <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>= =20 writes:

I just recently got my = Renesis=20 started again after finishing my cowl.  I seem to be getting = very high=20 coolant pressures.  I can only run the engine about 10-15 = minutes=20 before hitting the redline at 210*.  My water pressure is at 27 = Lbs at=20 that time.  I only have a 22 Lb radiator cap, so I assume that = I am=20 blowing into the recovery tank, but I have not confirmed that.  = My oil=20 temp has never exceeded about 165*.  It might have gone higher = if I=20 could have run longer???

 

This whole water = pressure thing=20 has me a little baffled.  Since this is a closed system and the = only=20 way pressure can build is due to the expansion of the coolant after=20 heating???, I am confused by some comments that have been made from = time to=20 time.  I remember something that Tracy said about his pressure = would build=20 for a time, then go to zero.  It seems to me that the pressure = should=20 correlate to the temp pretty closely since it is a closed system??=20

 

Can someone enlighten = me a=20 little on the science of this pressure?  It seems to me that = there=20 could be some pressure build up on the positive side of the pump, = but it=20 would go negative on the suction side, so the net effect of the pump = should=20 be close to zero??

 

Also, my Renesis had = only 1800=20 miles on it when I bought it, so I did not have to tear it = down.  As a=20 result, I am somewhat in the dark as to how the water flows through = the=20 system.  Could someone help me with that?  I had to remove = the=20 thermostat tower for height clearance , so I made an adapter plate = that=20 takes water from the top outlet of the pump and sends it to the = radiator=20 (double pass), then from the radiator, it returns to the lower inlet = of the=20 pump.

 

Thanks,

Bill=20 B

 


-al wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo = Subaru 3.0R=20 with variable valve lift and cam timing.
Artificial intelligence = in=20 cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, = Subaru=20 install, Prop construct, Risk assessment=20 = info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html

-Al Wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable = valve lift=20 and cam timing.
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ = hours from=20 Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, = Risk=20 assessment info:
htt= p://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
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