Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #39636
From: George Lendich <lendich@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Another cooling question
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:55:38 +1000
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Mark,
Here's a WAG on my part, I can't compete with Lynn or Ed on these issues, but I was thinking if the air was flowing faster through the water rad and was robbing the oil rad (because of different pressures) before you put in that partition to separate or better balance the two - it may be that the air is building up in the exit, not sufficiently to restrict the water rad ( high velocity) but may be enough to restrict the oil rad ( lower velocity).
Worth consideration?
George ( down under)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 3:17 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another cooling question

Rather than me state my oft express viewpoint about slow moving fluid and its cooling effectiveness, here are some folks with a world of experience and knowledge and what they say about it.
 
 
Q = M*Cp*Delta T.
 
There is no doubt that if you move air slower through your core, you are going to increase its temperature more than faster moving air through the core (everything else being the same).
However, that does not necessarily mean you are removing more heat from the total system.  Let me try to show the relative effects of M and Delta T of air flow  through a 1 sq ft core
 
Velocity(ft/sec)   Mass Flow(lbm/min)   Delta T(F)     Q(BTU/Min)
 
10                            45.9                            50                        573.75  (Baseline)
 
Lets increase delta T to the maximum that I have heard reported (100F)
 
10                            45.9                            100                        1147.5
 
So doubling the delta T doubles the heat rejected - no surprise there, but this is the largest delta T that I have heard reported.
 
Now lets vary mass flow by varying velocity
 
20                                91.8                            50                         1147.5
 
40                               183.6                        25                            1147.5
 
 
So here,  I can reduce the delta T by as much as 75 deg (100-75 = 25) but by modestly increasing the duct velocity from 10 ft/sec (  6 mph) to   40 ft/sec (27 Mph)   I can reject the same amount of heat at only a 25F increase in air temps.
 
So my point is that we appear to hit the practical limit on hear transfer increase by increasing delta T much sooner than we hit a limit by  increasing mass flow. 
 
Now IF you have a very efficient core design and can get a 100 Delta T when the air velocity is 40 ft/sec then you are really cooking as that would give you
 
40                             183.6                        100                     4590 BTU/Min
 
So how do you get maximum heat transfer - I imagine it is a combination of duct and core design optimized for that particular set of parameter values - like smaller holes, more fins, wavy fins, thicker core, etc.  But alas those would only be optimum for one set of values and because we want to cool from sitting on the ground to going 200 MPH, we must accept a compromise that accommodates both of those regimes of operation.
 
Cooling is sort of like life - a continuing series of compromises {:>)
 
My 0.02
 
Ed           
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 1:32 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another cooling question

Snip
That's exactly what I HAD thought, until I was told that the air could pass through too fast and not pick up as much heat. 
 
Mark... this is what I was trying to communicate. It could be totally wrong so let's get more opinions.  Ed??
 
With respect to exit area size only. 
 
If the volume of air through the coolant radiator was moving faster than optimum the air delta T would be lower than it would be with slower air. Slower air at a higher delta T means less air needs to exit the cowl.  What is optimum? Every install is unique so it needs to be viewed \ identified on each installation. Ed uses a 30% duct air speed as a reference point. If I understand this correctly the diffuser play a role in duct airspeed. If the air is not being diffused optimally the airspeed could be much higher than 30% through the part of the core. Dennis H. and I observed airspeeds through a test core at 50% + without a diffuser.
 
Your inlets are 72sqin with 306sqin core face for water and 24.75 sqin with 102 sqin for oil. Both are competing for the same exit area. IF this is an exit area problem only then enlarging it should improve both water and oil proportionally. Water should realize 2/3 of the improvement and oil 1/3.  306 sqin vs 102 sqin. Your improvements after opening the exit seem to track this very close. So increasing your exit area further should show more improvements in both oil and water to a point. But you do not need more water cooling improvements right?
 
Core 306 sqin at an airspeed of 115mph.
 
40% or 46 mph = 8602 cfm   8602 cfm at a 50 deg air delta T = 7741 btu's \ min
30% or 34.5 = 6451 cfm        6451 cfm at a 80 deg air delta T = 7741 btu's \ min
 
In this example 2151 cfm less air needs to flow through the water radiator to produce the same btu rejection. So what effect would 2151 cfm less air through the water radiator and exit area have on the oil cooler's ability to flow more air? Would it improve the oil cooler air flow by 1/3 or 717 cfm? Not sure.  
 
Can your radiator produce a 80 deg air delta T? It may only produce 60, 70 or??
 
Am I in left field here?
 
 
 
Bobby
(flow testing new radiator ducts prototype today) 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 4:28 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Another cooling question

ED wrote:
<snip>
 Mark, if you really had excess air flowing through your radiators the coolant would drop more than 4 Deg F.  In fact, the more air flow the more coolant Delta T you would drop through the radiator. 
<snip>
 
That's exactly what I HAD thought, until I was told that the air could pass through too fast and not pick up as much heat.  This didn't make sense to me.  Maybe I wasn't listening closely and missed the point altogether (wouldn't be the first time). 
 
What I DO know is that the air is flowing faster through the water radiator than the oil radiator.  (I'm not sure I have the ASI's hooked up correctly, but they're both hooked up the same).  I have a pitot behind each radiator hooked up to two separate ASI's.  In slow cruise, say 125-130 kts, the water radiator ASI will read about 110knts and the oil ASI will read about 90 kts.  The way it was behaving before I opened up the exit, it appeared that the air from the water radiator was trying to exit backwards through the oil inlet.  I say this because of how high the oil temps were reading.  I enlarged the cowl exit, and both the water and oil temps dropped significantly. 
 
The ASI's are referencing the static port for these readings; should they be referencing cowl or cabin pressure instead?  Airspeeds readings seem awfully high to me. 
 
Mark
(Going to the airport today to recalibrate temp sensors)
 


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.33/1037 - Release Date: 29/09/2007 1:32 PM
Subscribe (FEED) Subscribe (DIGEST) Subscribe (INDEX) Unsubscribe Mail to Listmaster