X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.227] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2309417 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 03 Sep 2007 19:58:35 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.249.82.227; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i27so1488926wxd for ; Mon, 03 Sep 2007 16:57:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=bMLTLaMYz1PVhpf7p1Ht6xFqLKUKprb56B555zGUKjGzYJCaoodx4HhW+boSpuXDaIuHobJ0WFu6lZev5Kfn/zDFKt7YvM2jOJdhFSNTWCDPxZpVo3RVLMaU9zTVkGyr47waTKaJLoCee3a4pYRh1mDZkj6ZHnClcMBuh6vWgAM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ifqOBHuHFMEKvwSTUxLjWywRQzQdvIbVNczeJblfnoGi48LOyY+9wESLDqka1hsXBtckyZPG+IqItIKVrCacpaAoueIS6Qt7UaJd/e5GyMvQ/YuV0zujDX5dKIIqAI1Jdu3s0eKNiQx7tZ+lyk2nOz0lkkbQlcj+bd5FQuecqgk= Received: by 10.90.104.14 with SMTP id b14mr4496197agc.1188863878316; Mon, 03 Sep 2007 16:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.100.13 with HTTP; Mon, 3 Sep 2007 16:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cf132c0709031657v345ddae8g8c6797caaf503c03@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 18:57:58 -0500 From: "Mark Steitle" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Interface between Primary fuel rail and diffuser (air bleed) 20B In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_20267_4748000.1188863878279" References: ------=_Part_20267_4748000.1188863878279 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Joe, Maybe you can get a parts guy to look it up on his computer. Mark On 9/3/07, Joe Ewen wrote: > > Mark, > > Thanks for the reply. With all the 20Bs out there, I am hopeful someone > will have the info. Thanks for the pic, but I think that is from a 89-92 > turbo primary. If I understand correctly the 20B is the same as the 93-95 > turbo. The picture is of a top feed injector, the 20B has side feed > injectors on the primary. > > Thanks again, > Joe > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Mark Steitle > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Monday, September 03, 2007 5:39 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Interface between Primary fuel rail and > diffuser (air bleed) 20B > > > Joe, > I was hoping that someone would respond with the solution. While I have a > 20B, its been quite a while since I had the injectors off, but I think there > should be an o-ring like spacer that fits between the bottom of the injector > and the diffuser which forms a seal. I would have to remove my intake > manifold and the fuel rail to look and see. Hopefully, someone that knows > for sure will chime in. In the interim, you chould check the Mazdatrix > website and see what they recommend. > > I found a jpg of the injector with o-rings, diffuser, etc. that I will > send to you directly. It shows the o-ring/spacer that I mentioned. > > Mark > > > On 9/3/07, Ed Anderson wrote: > > > > Sorry, can't help you Joe. Just no experience with the 20B or 13BREW. > > > > But, I will mention this, IF you do have an air leak of any size, it > > will be impossible to bring your idle down to low rpm. It will run fine, > > but when you close your throttle, even a very small air leak will leave > > your idle above 1200 rpm (or more). So I agree paying attention to getting > > that correct is well worth the time and effort. > > > > Ed > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Joe Ewen > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > > *Sent:* Monday, September 03, 2007 11:32 AM > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Interface between Primary fuel rail and diffuser > > (air bleed) 20B > > > > > > *Background* > > When installing the primary fuel rail on my 20B, I noticed a gap between > > the primary fuel rail and the diffuser (air bleed.) One of the original air > > bleeds was damaged when the rebuilder was removing. He could not locate a > > replacement. He supplied new air bleeds designated for a 93-95 13B, which > > he was informed were usable in the 20B. The gap between the fuel rail and > > the diffuser seems to be between 0.110" and 0.145". This measurement > > was determined by inserting the diffuser and measuring its depth. Then the > > fuel rail was bolted in place. Through the intake port, the injector was > > pushed up until it contacted the fuel rail. The fuel rail was then removed > > and diffuser depth was measured. The difference between the measurements > > was between 0.110" and 0.145". The original diffuser returned by the > > rebuilder has no apparent seal, the replacement has a rubber seal molded > > into the top. > > > > I took some measurements and drew up the primary, fuel rail / injector > > /diffuser (see attached pdf.) It looks like there are 2 differences between > > the diffusers that came on the 20B and the replacements recently purchased. > > The height of the diffuser above the seating surface is much lower on the > > replacements and the length of the area that projects into the port/air > > stream is longer. The extra length extending into the port is probably not > > an issue. > > > > The shorter height of the replacement seems like it will be a problem, > > the problem being a vacuum leak around the injector. A secondary issue from > > a vacuum leak in this area may be an effect on fuel droplet size. By > > looking at the injector, it appears that a metered amount of air is intended > > to flow into the pintle cap, presumably to aid in reducing the fuel droplet > > size. A vacuum leak in this area may reduce the air flow through the pintle > > cap and the resulting droplet size reduction. > > > > I would speculate that at medium or higher power levels the vacuum leak > > would probably have little noticeable effect. I would expect that the most > > significant effect would be at or near idle conditions. Since smooth idle > > seems to be difficult to attain in many installations, it would certainly be > > prudent to try and eliminate this issue (not to mention that it would be > > good practice to get it right.) > > > > *Questions* > > 1. There seems to be a very small gap (~0.010") between the fuel rail > > seating surface and the top of the original diffuser. It looks like there > > should be a grommet that makes up the difference and provides a positive > > seal. To anyone who has disassembled a 20B, is there a grommet/seal the > > sits on top of the diffuser? > > > > 2. Same question as 1, for anyone who has disassembled a 93-95 13B > > (13B-REW, I believe)? > > > > 3. Anyone have a source for the proper 20B diffusers? > > > > Any opinions and/or remedy suggestions are appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > Joe > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > -- > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > Archive and UnSub: > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > ------=_Part_20267_4748000.1188863878279 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Joe,
Maybe you can get a parts guy to look it up on his computer. 

Mark

 
On 9/3/07, Joe Ewen <Jewen@comporium.net> wrote:
Mark,
 
Thanks for the reply.  With all the 20Bs out there, I am hopeful someone will have the info.  Thanks for the pic, but I think that is from a 89-92 turbo primary.  If I understand correctly the 20B is the same as the 93-95 turbo.  The picture is of a top feed injector, the 20B has side feed injectors on the primary.
 
Thanks again,
Joe
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 5:39 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Interface between Primary fuel rail and diffuser (air bleed) 20B

 
Joe,
I was hoping that someone would respond with the solution.  While I have a 20B, its been quite a while since I had the injectors off, but I think there should be an o-ring like spacer that fits between the bottom of the injector and the diffuser which forms a seal.  I would have to remove my intake manifold and the fuel rail to look and see.  Hopefully, someone that knows for sure will chime in.  In the interim, you chould check the Mazdatrix website and see what they recommend. 
 
I found a jpg of the injector with o-rings, diffuser, etc. that I will send to you directly.  It shows the o-ring/spacer that I mentioned.
 
Mark

 
On 9/3/07, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com > wrote:
Sorry, can't help you Joe. Just no experience with the 20B or 13BREW.
 
  But, I will mention this, IF you do have an air leak of any size, it will be impossible to bring your idle down to low rpm.  It will run fine, but  when you close your throttle, even a very small air leak will leave your idle above 1200 rpm (or more).  So I agree paying attention to getting that correct is well worth the time and effort. 
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Ewen
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 11:32 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Interface between Primary fuel rail and diffuser (air bleed) 20B

 
Background
When installing the primary fuel rail on my 20B, I noticed a gap between the primary fuel rail and the diffuser (air bleed.)  One of the original air bleeds was damaged when the rebuilder was removing.  He could not locate a replacement.  He supplied new air bleeds designated for a 93-95 13B, which he was informed were usable in the 20B.  The gap between the fuel rail and the diffuser seems to be between 0.110" and 0.145".  This measurement was determined by inserting the diffuser and measuring its depth.  Then the fuel rail was bolted in place.  Through the intake port, the injector was pushed up until it contacted the fuel rail.  The fuel rail was then removed and diffuser depth was measured.  The difference between the measurements was between 0.110" and 0.145".  The original diffuser returned by the rebuilder has no apparent seal, the replacement has a rubber seal molded into the top.
 
I took some measurements and drew up the primary, fuel rail / injector /diffuser (see attached pdf.)  It looks like there are 2 differences between the diffusers that came on the 20B and the replacements recently purchased.  The height of the diffuser above the seating surface is much lower on the replacements and the length of the area that projects into the port/air stream is longer.  The extra length extending into the port is probably not an issue.   
 
The shorter height of the replacement seems like it will be a problem, the problem being a vacuum leak around the injector.  A secondary issue from a vacuum leak in this area may be an effect on fuel droplet size.  By looking at the injector, it appears that a metered amount of air is intended to flow into the pintle cap, presumably to aid in reducing the fuel droplet size.  A vacuum leak in this area may reduce the air flow through the pintle cap and the resulting droplet size reduction. 
 
I would speculate that at medium or higher power levels the vacuum leak would probably have little noticeable effect.  I would expect that the most significant effect would be at or near idle conditions.  Since smooth idle seems to be difficult to attain in many installations, it would certainly be prudent to try and eliminate this issue (not to mention that it would be good practice to get it right.)
 
Questions
1.  There seems to be a very small gap (~0.010") between the fuel rail seating surface and the top of the original diffuser.  It looks like there should be a grommet that makes up the difference and provides a positive seal.  To anyone who has disassembled a 20B, is there a grommet/seal the sits on top of the diffuser?
 
2.  Same question as 1, for anyone who has disassembled a 93-95 13B (13B-REW, I believe)?
 
3.  Anyone have a source for the proper 20B diffusers?
 
Any opinions and/or remedy suggestions are appreciated.
 
Thanks,
Joe

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html



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