X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.249] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2307673 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 02 Sep 2007 21:03:45 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.132.249; envelope-from=rotary.thjakits@gmail.com Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b2so239197ana for ; Sun, 02 Sep 2007 18:03:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=emphFNGkdDn/6iHLIy+6jbcK18Q6GwWiamkU5WH+7TTqV2KRKrvra+X0IffFqmFPS8mipSSS0lL+m923EbWRrclS0tmoSz07ii+V/3zxlqJ6fk+yP/NV+NPHDH+QBuV95+zWpllKpb97o8O0NUfGHT07OhHocJUmqmeuHBGjuIU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Gx4dYd19nE+1EbR5dVK7Jz5wIbIGpXf8EHpdmaH5FUYRj7fHjVBVXmObjp6AUfbUgiP4DXqmo+E90iydSEpsan2/AngYbeXpP1MXI1HreJV5jpdWheXeiNyNwJqjrnbcU1YseuYwO+6UvgYMFL+Hvnis4/Ibr+MucGCa8bAoj7Y= Received: by 10.100.133.9 with SMTP id g9mr3311859and.1188781389621; Sun, 02 Sep 2007 18:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.197.17 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Sep 2007 18:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <63163d560709021803y63ef4ac9j97604534ded7b6bc@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 20:03:09 -0500 From: "Thomas Jakits" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: need help In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11737_28165370.1188781389543" References: ------=_Part_11737_28165370.1188781389543 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yeah! Blame it on the java! I do it all the time :) - I'm an addict! Now, just to set things straight - I refered to the drain sump as 1 qt ( unusable in-tank fuel 1 qt). The header I would aim for at least 3 gallons, 4-5 better.... TJ On 9/2/07, Joe Ewen wrote: > > Thomas, > Agreed, 1-2 gallons is a lot of space. Units should have been cups. I > can only offer that the coffee was still brewing and not coursing through my > veins when I wrote the previous reply. > Joe > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Thomas Jakits > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Sunday, September 02, 2007 1:37 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: need help > > > Hi Joe, > > again the "customary" :) up front! > > 1-2 gallons is a lot of space for *a lot *of trash! If you have the need > for that much space you *need* to change your fuel supplier right now - or > redo your fuel system! > A small 1-qt sump is really all you need. > What you should get though, is an easy access to a *huge* drain (high > volume flow) on that sump *and* use it every chance you get - like after > every refill, before every flight, after any time in a rain, every time you > only "visit" your mistress! > That does: > > a) Avoid that anything settles/sticks to the sump-bottom > b) Doesn't let any accumulation of debris happen > c) Tells you what is going on in your fuel system > > If the drain samples are clean put them back in and be happy that you have > a clean fuel system! If there is some water in there, separate the water and > use the fuel again. > In any system that uses a sump and or gascolator, *I would* (the > customary...) make sure that the supplying tanks *do not *have a sump for > debris control, but for fuel collection only. > > If you use your main sump drain often there is no way you ever will > accumulate a lot of debris. > Condensed water is not a contaminant, but a normal occurrence. It only > becomes a problem if you leave it in the sump for ever and it becomes the > nourishment for fungus.... > > As a matter of fact. > E.g. the Robinson helicopters have 2 tanks with a drain each, join the > fuel lines and pass through a gascolator before going to the engine. > When ever I saw an increase of "flotsam" in the drain samples, I would > close the fuel-shutoff (before the gascolator....) and pour about 1/2 qt of > clean water into the tank! > Whoever saw this would freak out!! > What does that: It lifts any debris that would sink in gasoline, but float > in water of the ground and keep it on top of the water. > Now I would drain the water - make sure you never stop draining until you > see pure gasoline running out. All the mud would be floating like a black > disc between the water and fuel in the drain bottle... > Before flight rock the wings, taxi on a slight sloe both ways and drain > the sumps again - ready! > Whatever rest (water) stays in the will go to the bottom of that 1-2 qt > sump. Any rest is way less than what you get with 1/2 full tanks and weeks > of parking in "condensing conditions".... > I prefer to get any muck out of the wings as soon as possible into a place > where it can get drained quickly... > > At my job (flying helos for a living....) I would drain before every > flight, even if the mechanic just pulled a sample 5min ago after > refueling... > > Best Regards, > > TJ > > > > > On 9/1/07, Joe Ewen wrote: > > > > Hi Wendell, > > > > I would agree with Thomas (including his customary warning.) I would > > add one item to consider. I am building a Velocity and am positioning the > > fuel supply from the sump (hopper) tank a couple of inches from the bottom > > . The idea is to leave 1 to 2 gallons in the sump as an area for water and > > contaminants to settle. One might argue that the 1 or 2 gallons may be > > helpful if low on fuel, but I plan (hope) on never operating the AC that low > > on fuel ( i.e. John Denver.) > > > > Joe > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Thomas Jakits > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > > *Sent:* Friday, August 31, 2007 11:05 PM > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: need help > > > > > > Hey Wendell, > > > > now up front my customary warning: > > All I post is copied/theory/"what I would do"/no personal experience - > > worth what you paid for! > > > > a) First, read the fuel-part of > > http://www.ez.org/feature/F0502-1/F0502-1.htm (about 1/3 down, read it > > all anyway - for me that bird is a total blast!) > > b) Okay, it's the little brother (or actually daddy?), but the systems > > should be similar? > > c) With reference to the article above, I would make a 5--8 gallon alu > > or plastic tank, somewhere below the wing level - under the rear seats as > > Bill's system or if you don't like the idea, at the lowest part behind the > > firewall, but somewhere where the mains can drain into easily, 1/2" lines. > > I always promote "heavy" fuel lines, never less than 1/2", helps a lot > > to prevent vaporlock, air bubble lock - after running the tanks dry. An air > > bubble will have a hard time to block a 1/2" line... > > I'd prefer alu for the tank, as it is easier to do fuel plumbing, like > > in-tank fuel pumps. > > > > Obviously the Cozy (or most Canards) are not real low wing aircraft, but > > rather midwings, so creating a system that can drain into one common sump > > should be possible. > > Make the tank round or V-shaped at the bottom and you should be able to > > run it nearly dry (less then 1 gal unusable...). > > d) If you copy Bill's system you only need 2 shut-offs, that stay open > > except for maintenance purpose and 1 single shut-off at the firewall. > > e) Return to the 5-8 gal header/sump should keep the temps in control or > > if you prefer to anyone of the wingtanks, as they are normally open and > > connected it will balance fine until very low - then watch the ball! FLy a > > little left/right to empty the wingtanks and land on the 5-8 in the sump! :) > > > > > > f) One difference I would make is to lead ALL ventlines into one common > > manifold at the highest point possible (behind the rear seat headrests or > > just behind there on the firewall) and vent this manifold to some static > > area (mainwheel fairing?). Just make sure your filler caps are airtight. > > g) This way you only need 2 fuel pumps in parallel - you are truly > > redundant, no fussing around with fuel-selectors (except for after shutdown, > > if you care for - as your engine is at or above the general fuel level, > > there should be no real reason to shut off fuel every time....) > > > > Best Regards, > > > > TJ > > > > > > On 8/30/07, Wendell Voto wrote: > > > > > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: need help > > > > > > TJ, > > > > > > Sorry about the delay in responding, have been away doing my contract > > > work (still a necessity). I am building a Cozy. Bought a project that I > > > thought was a Cozy MKIV but was one of the very first, other than Nats, 4 > > > place Cozys. It is narrower in the front by about 3 inches (original Cozy 3 > > > dimensions) but is about the same in other repects except the firewall is > > > about 2 inches closer to the landing gear bulkhead than the new plans > > > versions. Don't know how that will effect cg. > > > > > > Have been thinking more about the fuel system and want the finalize it > > > soon. I put in returns in both tanks and feel I will go ahead and use them > > > and build the header tank slightly smaller than the 15 inches mentioned > > > earlier. Will use 2 outside the tank pumps so no switching will be needed. > > > > > > Wendell > > > > > > Wendell, > > > > > > would you please remind me what airplane you are building? > > > > > > TJ > > > > > > > > > > > > ------=_Part_11737_28165370.1188781389543 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Yeah!
 
Blame it on the java! I do it all the time :) - I'm an addict!
Now, just to set things straight - I refered to the drain sump as 1 qt ( unusable in-tank fuel 1 qt). The header I would aim for at least 3 gallons, 4-5 better....
 
TJ

 
On 9/2/07, Joe Ewen <Jewen@comporium.net> wrote:
Thomas,
Agreed, 1-2 gallons is a lot of space.  Units should have been cups.  I can only offer that the coffee was still brewing and not coursing through my veins when I wrote the previous reply.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 1:37 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help

 
Hi Joe,
 
again the "customary" :) up front!
 
1-2 gallons is a lot of space for a lot of trash! If you have the need for that much space you need to change your fuel supplier right now - or redo your fuel system!
 A small 1-qt sump is really all you need.
What you should get though, is an easy access to a huge drain (high volume flow) on that sump and use it every chance you get - like after every refill, before every flight, after any time in a rain, every time you only "visit" your mistress!
That does:
 
a) Avoid that anything settles/sticks to the sump-bottom
b) Doesn't let any accumulation of debris happen
c) Tells you what is going on in your fuel system
 
If the drain samples are clean put them back in and be happy that you have a clean fuel system! If there is some water in there, separate the water and use the fuel again.
In any system that uses a sump and or gascolator, I would (the customary...) make sure that the supplying tanks do not have a sump for debris control, but for fuel collection only.
 
If you use your main sump drain often there is no way you ever will accumulate a lot of debris.
Condensed water is not a contaminant, but a normal occurrence. It only becomes a problem if you leave it in the sump for ever and it becomes the nourishment for fungus....
 
As a matter of fact.
E.g. the Robinson helicopters have 2 tanks with a drain each, join the fuel lines and pass through a gascolator before going to the engine.
When ever I saw an increase of "flotsam" in the drain samples, I would close the fuel-shutoff (before the gascolator....) and pour about 1/2 qt of clean water into the tank!
Whoever saw this would freak out!!
What does that: It lifts any debris that would sink in gasoline, but float in water of the ground and keep it on top of the water.
Now I would drain the water - make sure you never stop draining until you see pure gasoline running out. All the mud would be floating like a black disc between the water and fuel in the drain bottle...
Before flight rock the wings, taxi on a slight sloe both ways and drain the sumps again - ready!
Whatever rest (water) stays in the will go to the bottom of that 1-2 qt sump. Any rest is way less than what you get with 1/2 full tanks and weeks of parking in "condensing conditions"....
I prefer to get any muck out of the wings as soon as possible into a place where it can get drained quickly...
 
At my job (flying helos for a living....) I would drain before every flight, even if the mechanic just pulled a sample 5min ago after refueling...
 
Best Regards,
 
TJ
 


 
On 9/1/07, Joe Ewen <Jewen@comporium.net> wrote:
Hi Wendell,
 
I would agree with Thomas (including his customary warning.)  I would add one item to consider.  I am building a Velocity and am positioning the fuel supply from the sump (hopper) tank a couple of inches from the bottom .  The idea is to leave 1 to 2 gallons in the sump as an area for water and contaminants to settle.  One might argue that the 1 or 2 gallons may be helpful if low on fuel, but I plan (hope) on never operating the AC that low on fuel ( i.e. John Denver.)
 
Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 11:05 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help

 
Hey Wendell,
 
now up front my customary warning:
All I post is copied/theory/"what I would do"/no personal experience - worth what you paid for!
 
a) First, read the fuel-part of http://www.ez.org/feature/F0502-1/F0502-1.htm (about 1/3 down, read it all anyway - for me that bird is a total blast!)
b) Okay, it's the little brother (or actually daddy?), but the systems should be similar?
c) With reference to the article above, I would make a 5--8 gallon alu or plastic tank, somewhere below the wing level  - under the rear seats as Bill's system or if you don't like the idea, at the lowest part behind the firewall, but somewhere where the mains can drain into easily, 1/2" lines.
I always promote "heavy" fuel lines, never less than 1/2", helps a lot to prevent vaporlock, air bubble lock - after running the tanks dry. An air bubble will have a hard time to block a 1/2" line...
I'd prefer alu for the tank, as it is easier to do fuel plumbing, like in-tank fuel pumps.
 
Obviously the Cozy (or most Canards) are not real low wing aircraft, but rather midwings, so creating a system that can drain into one common sump should be possible.
Make the tank round or V-shaped at the bottom and you should be able to run it nearly dry (less then 1 gal unusable...).
d) If you copy Bill's system you only need 2 shut-offs, that stay open except for maintenance purpose and 1 single shut-off at the firewall.
e) Return to the 5-8 gal header/sump should keep the temps in control or if you prefer to anyone of the wingtanks, as they are normally open and connected it will balance fine until very low - then watch the ball! FLy a little left/right to empty the wingtanks and land on the 5-8 in the sump! :)
 
f) One difference I would make is to lead ALL ventlines into one common manifold at the highest point possible (behind the rear seat headrests or just behind there on the firewall) and vent this manifold to some static area (mainwheel fairing?). Just make sure your filler caps are airtight.
g) This way you only need 2 fuel pumps in parallel - you are truly redundant, no fussing around with fuel-selectors (except for after shutdown, if you care for - as your engine is at or above the general fuel level, there should be no real reason to shut off fuel every time....)
 
Best Regards,
 
TJ

 
On 8/30/07, Wendell Voto <jwvoto@itlnet.net> wrote:
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help
TJ,
 
Sorry about the delay in responding, have been away doing my contract work (still a necessity). I am building a Cozy.  Bought a project that I thought was a Cozy MKIV but was one of the very first, other than Nats, 4 place Cozys.  It is narrower in the front by about 3 inches (original Cozy 3 dimensions) but is about the same in other repects except the firewall is about 2 inches closer to the landing gear bulkhead than the new plans versions.  Don't know how that will effect cg.
 
Have been thinking more about the fuel system and want the finalize it soon.  I put in returns in both tanks and feel I will go ahead and use them and build the header tank slightly smaller than the 15 inches mentioned earlier.  Will use 2 outside the tank pumps so no switching will be needed.
 
Wendell
 
Wendell,
 
would you please remind me what airplane you are building?
 
TJ
 



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