X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from rg4.comporium.net ([208.104.2.24] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTPS id 2307377 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 02 Sep 2007 16:30:20 -0400 Received-SPF: neutral receiver=logan.com; client-ip=208.104.2.24; envelope-from=Jewen@comporium.net Received: from 208-104-81-95.lnhe.2wcm.comporium.net (HELO engineer1) ([208.104.81.95]) by rg4.comporium.net (MOS 3.8.4-GA FastPath queued) with SMTP id ACG31973; Sun, 02 Sep 2007 16:29:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <004b01c7ed9f$f61012e0$6505a8c0@cooleygroup.local> From: "Joe Ewen" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 16:29:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0045_01C7ED7E.6D1826B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Junkmail-Status: score=10/70, host=rg4.comporium.net X-Junkmail-SD-Raw: score=unknown, refid=str=0001.0A090206.46DB1D34.00F7,ss=1,fgs=0, ip=208.104.81.95, so=2007-03-13 10:31:19, dmn=5.4.3/2007-08-17 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C7ED7E.6D1826B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thomas, Agreed, 1-2 gallons is a lot of space. Units should have been cups. I = can only offer that the coffee was still brewing and not coursing = through my veins when I wrote the previous reply. Joe ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Thomas Jakits=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 1:37 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Hi Joe, again the "customary" :) up front! 1-2 gallons is a lot of space for a lot of trash! If you have the need = for that much space you need to change your fuel supplier right now - or = redo your fuel system!=20 A small 1-qt sump is really all you need. What you should get though, is an easy access to a huge drain (high = volume flow) on that sump and use it every chance you get - like after = every refill, before every flight, after any time in a rain, every time = you only "visit" your mistress!=20 That does: a) Avoid that anything settles/sticks to the sump-bottom b) Doesn't let any accumulation of debris happen c) Tells you what is going on in your fuel system If the drain samples are clean put them back in and be happy that you = have a clean fuel system! If there is some water in there, separate the = water and use the fuel again. In any system that uses a sump and or gascolator, I would (the = customary...) make sure that the supplying tanks do not have a sump for = debris control, but for fuel collection only.=20 If you use your main sump drain often there is no way you ever will = accumulate a lot of debris. Condensed water is not a contaminant, but a normal occurrence. It only = becomes a problem if you leave it in the sump for ever and it becomes = the nourishment for fungus.... As a matter of fact. E.g. the Robinson helicopters have 2 tanks with a drain each, join the = fuel lines and pass through a gascolator before going to the engine. When ever I saw an increase of "flotsam" in the drain samples, I would = close the fuel-shutoff (before the gascolator....) and pour about 1/2 qt = of clean water into the tank! Whoever saw this would freak out!! What does that: It lifts any debris that would sink in gasoline, but = float in water of the ground and keep it on top of the water. Now I would drain the water - make sure you never stop draining until = you see pure gasoline running out. All the mud would be floating like a = black disc between the water and fuel in the drain bottle... Before flight rock the wings, taxi on a slight sloe both ways and = drain the sumps again - ready! Whatever rest (water) stays in the will go to the bottom of that 1-2 = qt sump. Any rest is way less than what you get with 1/2 full tanks and = weeks of parking in "condensing conditions".... I prefer to get any muck out of the wings as soon as possible into a = place where it can get drained quickly... At my job (flying helos for a living....) I would drain before every = flight, even if the mechanic just pulled a sample 5min ago after = refueling... Best Regards, TJ =20 On 9/1/07, Joe Ewen wrote:=20 Hi Wendell, I would agree with Thomas (including his customary warning.) I = would add one item to consider. I am building a Velocity and am = positioning the fuel supply from the sump (hopper) tank a couple of = inches from the bottom . The idea is to leave 1 to 2 gallons in the = sump as an area for water and contaminants to settle. One might argue = that the 1 or 2 gallons may be helpful if low on fuel, but I plan (hope) = on never operating the AC that low on fuel ( i.e. John Denver.) Joe ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Thomas Jakits=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 11:05 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help =20 Hey Wendell, now up front my customary warning: All I post is copied/theory/"what I would do"/no personal = experience - worth what you paid for! a) First, read the fuel-part of = http://www.ez.org/feature/F0502-1/F0502-1.htm (about 1/3 down, read it = all anyway - for me that bird is a total blast!)=20 b) Okay, it's the little brother (or actually daddy?), but the = systems should be similar? c) With reference to the article above, I would make a 5--8 gallon = alu or plastic tank, somewhere below the wing level - under the rear = seats as Bill's system or if you don't like the idea, at the lowest part = behind the firewall, but somewhere where the mains can drain into = easily, 1/2" lines.=20 I always promote "heavy" fuel lines, never less than 1/2", helps a = lot to prevent vaporlock, air bubble lock - after running the tanks dry. = An air bubble will have a hard time to block a 1/2" line...=20 I'd prefer alu for the tank, as it is easier to do fuel plumbing, = like in-tank fuel pumps. Obviously the Cozy (or most Canards) are not real low wing = aircraft, but rather midwings, so creating a system that can drain into = one common sump should be possible. Make the tank round or V-shaped at the bottom and you should be = able to run it nearly dry (less then 1 gal unusable...). d) If you copy Bill's system you only need 2 shut-offs, that stay = open except for maintenance purpose and 1 single shut-off at the = firewall. e) Return to the 5-8 gal header/sump should keep the temps in = control or if you prefer to anyone of the wingtanks, as they are = normally open and connected it will balance fine until very low - then = watch the ball! FLy a little left/right to empty the wingtanks and land = on the 5-8 in the sump! :)=20 f) One difference I would make is to lead ALL ventlines into one = common manifold at the highest point possible (behind the rear seat = headrests or just behind there on the firewall) and vent this manifold = to some static area (mainwheel fairing?). Just make sure your filler = caps are airtight.=20 g) This way you only need 2 fuel pumps in parallel - you are truly = redundant, no fussing around with fuel-selectors (except for after = shutdown, if you care for - as your engine is at or above the general = fuel level, there should be no real reason to shut off fuel every = time....)=20 Best Regards, TJ =20 On 8/30/07, Wendell Voto wrote:=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help TJ, Sorry about the delay in responding, have been away doing my = contract work (still a necessity). I am building a Cozy. Bought a = project that I thought was a Cozy MKIV but was one of the very first, = other than Nats, 4 place Cozys. It is narrower in the front by about 3 = inches (original Cozy 3 dimensions) but is about the same in other = repects except the firewall is about 2 inches closer to the landing gear = bulkhead than the new plans versions. Don't know how that will effect = cg.=20 Have been thinking more about the fuel system and want the = finalize it soon. I put in returns in both tanks and feel I will go = ahead and use them and build the header tank slightly smaller than the = 15 inches mentioned earlier. Will use 2 outside the tank pumps so no = switching will be needed.=20 Wendell =20 Wendell, would you please remind me what airplane you are building? TJ =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C7ED7E.6D1826B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thomas,
Agreed, 1-2 gallons is a lot of = space.  Units=20 should have been cups.  I can only offer that the coffee was still = brewing=20 and not coursing through my veins when I wrote the previous = reply.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Thomas Jakits
Sent: Sunday, September 02, = 2007 1:37=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need = help

Hi Joe,
 
again the "customary" :) up front!
 
1-2 gallons is a lot of space for a lot = of=20 trash! If you have the need for that much space you=20 need to change your fuel supplier right now = - or=20 redo your fuel system!
 A small 1-qt sump is really all you need.
What you should get though, is an easy access to a=20 huge drain (high volume flow) on that = sump=20 and use it every chance you get - like after = every=20 refill, before every flight, after any time in a rain, every time you = only=20 "visit" your mistress!
That does:
 
a) Avoid that anything settles/sticks to the sump-bottom
b) Doesn't let any accumulation of debris happen
c) Tells you what is going on in your fuel system
 
If the drain samples are clean put them back in and be happy that = you=20 have a clean fuel system! If there is some water in there, separate = the water=20 and use the fuel again.
In any system that uses a sump and or gascolator, I=20 would (the customary...) make sure that the supplying = tanks=20 do not have a sump for debris control, but = for fuel=20 collection only.
 
If you use your main sump drain often there is no way you ever = will=20 accumulate a lot of debris.
Condensed water is not a contaminant, but a normal occurrence. It = only=20 becomes a problem if you leave it in the sump for ever and it becomes = the=20 nourishment for fungus....
 
As a matter of fact.
E.g. the Robinson helicopters have 2 tanks with a drain each, = join the=20 fuel lines and pass through a gascolator before going to the = engine.
When ever I saw an increase of "flotsam" in the drain samples, I = would=20 close the fuel-shutoff (before the gascolator....) and pour about 1/2 = qt of=20 clean water into the tank!
Whoever saw this would freak out!!
What does that: It lifts any debris that would sink in gasoline, = but=20 float in water of the ground and keep it on top of the water.
Now I would drain the water - make sure you never stop draining = until you=20 see pure gasoline running out. All the mud would be floating like a = black disc=20 between the water and fuel in the drain bottle...
Before flight rock the wings, taxi on a slight sloe both ways and = drain=20 the sumps again - ready!
Whatever rest (water) stays in the will go to the bottom of that = 1-2 qt=20 sump. Any rest is way less than what you get with 1/2 full tanks and = weeks of=20 parking in "condensing conditions"....
I prefer to get any muck out of the wings as soon as possible = into a=20 place where it can get drained quickly...
 
At my job (flying helos for a living....) I would drain before = every=20 flight, even if the mechanic just pulled a sample 5min ago after=20 refueling...
 
Best Regards,
 
TJ
 


 
On 9/1/07, Joe Ewen=20 <Jewen@comporium.net> = wrote:=20
Hi Wendell,
 
I would agree with Thomas = (including his=20 customary warning.)  I would add one item to consider.  I = am=20 building a Velocity and am positioning the fuel supply from the sump = (hopper) tank a couple of inches from the bottom .  The idea is = to=20 leave 1 to 2 gallons in the sump as an area for water and = contaminants to=20 settle.  One might argue that the 1 or 2 gallons may be helpful = if low=20 on fuel, but I plan (hope) on never operating the AC that low on = fuel ( i.e.=20 John Denver.)
 
Joe
----- Original Message ----- =
From: = Thomas = Jakits=20
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Sent: Friday, August 31, = 2007 11:05=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = need=20 help

 
Hey Wendell,
 
now up front my customary warning:
All I post is copied/theory/"what I would do"/no personal = experience=20 - worth what you paid for!
 
a) First, read the fuel-part of http://www.ez.org/feature/F0502-1/F0502-1.htm (a= bout=20 1/3 down, read it all anyway - for me that bird is a total blast!) =
b) Okay, it's the little brother (or actually daddy?), but = the=20 systems should be similar?
c) With reference to the article above, I would make a 5--8 = gallon=20 alu or plastic tank, somewhere below the wing level  - under = the rear=20 seats as Bill's system or if you don't like the idea, at the = lowest part=20 behind the firewall, but somewhere where the mains can drain into = easily,=20 1/2" lines.
I always promote "heavy" fuel lines, never less than 1/2", = helps a=20 lot to prevent vaporlock, air bubble lock - after running the = tanks dry.=20 An air bubble will have a hard time to block a 1/2" line...
I'd prefer alu for the tank, as it is easier to do fuel = plumbing,=20 like in-tank fuel pumps.
 
Obviously the Cozy (or most Canards) are not real low wing = aircraft,=20 but rather midwings, so creating a system that can drain into one = common=20 sump should be possible.
Make the tank round or V-shaped at the bottom and you should = be able=20 to run it nearly dry (less then 1 gal unusable...).
d) If you copy Bill's system you only need 2 shut-offs, that = stay=20 open except for maintenance purpose and 1 single shut-off at the=20 firewall.
e) Return to the 5-8 gal header/sump should keep the temps in = control=20 or if you prefer to anyone of the wingtanks, as they are normally = open and=20 connected it will balance fine until very low - then watch the = ball! FLy a=20 little left/right to empty the wingtanks and land on the 5-8 in = the sump!=20 :)
 
f) One difference I would make is to lead ALL ventlines into = one=20 common manifold at the highest point possible (behind the rear = seat=20 headrests or just behind there on the firewall) and vent this = manifold to=20 some static area (mainwheel fairing?). Just make sure your filler = caps are=20 airtight.
g) This way you only need 2 fuel pumps in parallel - you are = truly=20 redundant, no fussing around with fuel-selectors (except for=20 after shutdown, if you care for - as your engine is at or = above the=20 general fuel level, there should be no real reason to shut off = fuel every=20 time....)
 
Best Regards,
 
TJ

 
On 8/30/07, Wendell=20 Voto <jwvoto@itlnet.net>=20 wrote:
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help
TJ,
 
Sorry about the delay in responding, have been away doing = my=20 contract work (still a necessity). I am building a Cozy.  = Bought=20 a project that I thought was a Cozy MKIV but was one of the = very=20 first, other than Nats, 4 place Cozys.  It is narrower in = the=20 front by about 3 inches (original Cozy 3 dimensions) but is = about the=20 same in other repects except the firewall is about 2 inches = closer to=20 the landing gear bulkhead than the new plans = versions. =20 Don't know how that will effect cg.
 
Have been thinking more about the fuel system and want = the=20 finalize it soon.  I put in returns in both tanks and = feel I will=20 go ahead and use them and build the header tank slightly = smaller than=20 the 15 inches mentioned earlier.  Will use 2 outside the = tank=20 pumps so no switching will be needed.
 
Wendell
 
Wendell,
 
would you please remind me what airplane you are = building?
 
=
TJ
 

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