X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from rg4.comporium.net ([208.104.2.24] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTPS id 2304524 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 01 Sep 2007 07:14:53 -0400 Received-SPF: neutral receiver=logan.com; client-ip=208.104.2.24; envelope-from=Jewen@comporium.net Received: from 208-104-81-95.lnhe.2wcm.comporium.net (HELO engineer1) ([208.104.81.95]) by rg4.comporium.net (MOS 3.8.4-GA FastPath queued) with SMTP id ACE88649; Sat, 01 Sep 2007 07:14:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000a01c7ec89$3402c560$6505a8c0@cooleygroup.local> From: "Joe Ewen" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 07:14:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7EC67.ACAC0610" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Junkmail-Status: score=10/70, host=rg4.comporium.net X-Junkmail-SD-Raw: score=unknown, refid=str=0001.0A09020B.46D94986.00BF,ss=1,fgs=0, ip=208.104.81.95, so=2007-03-13 10:31:19, dmn=5.4.3/2007-08-17 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7EC67.ACAC0610 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Wendell, I would agree with Thomas (including his customary warning.) I would = add one item to consider. I am building a Velocity and am positioning = the fuel supply from the sump (hopper) tank a couple of inches from the = bottom . The idea is to leave 1 to 2 gallons in the sump as an area for = water and contaminants to settle. One might argue that the 1 or 2 = gallons may be helpful if low on fuel, but I plan (hope) on never = operating the AC that low on fuel (i.e. John Denver.) Joe ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Thomas Jakits=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 11:05 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Hey Wendell, now up front my customary warning: All I post is copied/theory/"what I would do"/no personal experience - = worth what you paid for! a) First, read the fuel-part of = http://www.ez.org/feature/F0502-1/F0502-1.htm (about 1/3 down, read it = all anyway - for me that bird is a total blast!) b) Okay, it's the little brother (or actually daddy?), but the systems = should be similar? c) With reference to the article above, I would make a 5--8 gallon alu = or plastic tank, somewhere below the wing level - under the rear seats = as Bill's system or if you don't like the idea, at the lowest part = behind the firewall, but somewhere where the mains can drain into = easily, 1/2" lines.=20 I always promote "heavy" fuel lines, never less than 1/2", helps a lot = to prevent vaporlock, air bubble lock - after running the tanks dry. An = air bubble will have a hard time to block a 1/2" line...=20 I'd prefer alu for the tank, as it is easier to do fuel plumbing, like = in-tank fuel pumps. Obviously the Cozy (or most Canards) are not real low wing aircraft, = but rather midwings, so creating a system that can drain into one common = sump should be possible. Make the tank round or V-shaped at the bottom and you should be able = to run it nearly dry (less then 1 gal unusable...). d) If you copy Bill's system you only need 2 shut-offs, that stay open = except for maintenance purpose and 1 single shut-off at the firewall. e) Return to the 5-8 gal header/sump should keep the temps in control = or if you prefer to anyone of the wingtanks, as they are normally open = and connected it will balance fine until very low - then watch the ball! = FLy a little left/right to empty the wingtanks and land on the 5-8 in = the sump! :)=20 f) One difference I would make is to lead ALL ventlines into one = common manifold at the highest point possible (behind the rear seat = headrests or just behind there on the firewall) and vent this manifold = to some static area (mainwheel fairing?). Just make sure your filler = caps are airtight.=20 g) This way you only need 2 fuel pumps in parallel - you are truly = redundant, no fussing around with fuel-selectors (except for after = shutdown, if you care for - as your engine is at or above the general = fuel level, there should be no real reason to shut off fuel every = time....)=20 Best Regards, TJ =20 On 8/30/07, Wendell Voto wrote:=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help TJ, Sorry about the delay in responding, have been away doing my = contract work (still a necessity). I am building a Cozy. Bought a = project that I thought was a Cozy MKIV but was one of the very first, = other than Nats, 4 place Cozys. It is narrower in the front by about 3 = inches (original Cozy 3 dimensions) but is about the same in other = repects except the firewall is about 2 inches closer to the landing gear = bulkhead than the new plans versions. Don't know how that will effect = cg.=20 Have been thinking more about the fuel system and want the = finalize it soon. I put in returns in both tanks and feel I will go = ahead and use them and build the header tank slightly smaller than the = 15 inches mentioned earlier. Will use 2 outside the tank pumps so no = switching will be needed.=20 Wendell =20 Wendell, would you please remind me what airplane you are building? TJ =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7EC67.ACAC0610 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Wendell,
 
I would agree with Thomas (including = his customary=20 warning.)  I would add one item to consider.  I am building a = Velocity=20 and am positioning the fuel supply from the sump (hopper) tank a couple = of=20 inches from the bottom .  The idea is to leave 1 to 2 gallons in = the sump=20 as an area for water and contaminants to settle.  One might argue = that the=20 1 or 2 gallons may be helpful if low on fuel, but I plan (hope) on never = operating the AC that low on fuel (i.e. John Denver.)
 
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Thomas Jakits
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 = 11:05=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need = help

Hey Wendell,
 
now up front my customary warning:
All I post is copied/theory/"what I would do"/no personal = experience -=20 worth what you paid for!
 
a) First, read the fuel-part of http://www.ez.org/= feature/F0502-1/F0502-1.htm (about=20 1/3 down, read it all anyway - for me that bird is a total = blast!)
b) Okay, it's the little brother (or actually daddy?), but the = systems=20 should be similar?
c) With reference to the article above, I would make a 5--8 = gallon alu or=20 plastic tank, somewhere below the wing level  - under the rear = seats as=20 Bill's system or if you don't like the idea, at the lowest part behind = the=20 firewall, but somewhere where the mains can drain into easily, 1/2" = lines.=20
I always promote "heavy" fuel lines, never less than 1/2", helps = a lot to=20 prevent vaporlock, air bubble lock - after running the tanks dry. An = air=20 bubble will have a hard time to block a 1/2" line...
I'd prefer alu for the tank, as it is easier to do fuel plumbing, = like=20 in-tank fuel pumps.
 
Obviously the Cozy (or most Canards) are not real low wing = aircraft, but=20 rather midwings, so creating a system that can drain into one common = sump=20 should be possible.
Make the tank round or V-shaped at the bottom and you should be = able to=20 run it nearly dry (less then 1 gal unusable...).
d) If you copy Bill's system you only need 2 shut-offs, that stay = open=20 except for maintenance purpose and 1 single shut-off at the = firewall.
e) Return to the 5-8 gal header/sump should keep the temps in = control or=20 if you prefer to anyone of the wingtanks, as they are normally open = and=20 connected it will balance fine until very low - then watch the ball! = FLy a=20 little left/right to empty the wingtanks and land on the 5-8 in the = sump! :)=20
 
f) One difference I would make is to lead ALL ventlines into one = common=20 manifold at the highest point possible (behind the rear seat headrests = or just=20 behind there on the firewall) and vent this manifold to some static = area=20 (mainwheel fairing?). Just make sure your filler caps are airtight. =
g) This way you only need 2 fuel pumps in parallel - you are = truly=20 redundant, no fussing around with fuel-selectors (except for=20 after shutdown, if you care for - as your engine is at or above = the=20 general fuel level, there should be no real reason to shut off fuel = every=20 time....)
 
Best Regards,
 
TJ

 
On 8/30/07, Wendell=20 Voto <jwvoto@itlnet.net>=20 wrote:=20
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help
TJ,
 
Sorry about the delay in responding, have been away doing my = contract=20 work (still a necessity). I am building a Cozy.  Bought a = project=20 that I thought was a Cozy MKIV but was one of the very first, = other than=20 Nats, 4 place Cozys.  It is narrower in the front by about 3 = inches=20 (original Cozy 3 dimensions) but is about the same in other = repects except=20 the firewall is about 2 inches closer to the landing gear bulkhead = than=20 the new plans versions.  Don't know how that will effect = cg.=20
 
Have been thinking more about the fuel system and want the = finalize=20 it soon.  I put in returns in both tanks and feel I will go = ahead and=20 use them and build the header tank slightly smaller than the 15 = inches=20 mentioned earlier.  Will use 2 outside the tank pumps so no = switching=20 will be needed.
 
Wendell
 
Wendell,
 
would you please remind me what airplane you are = building?
 
=
TJ
 

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