X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imo-m23.mx.aol.com ([64.12.137.4] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.10) with ESMTP id 2190629 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 21 Jul 2007 01:46:59 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.137.4; envelope-from=WRJJRS@aol.com Received: from WRJJRS@aol.com by imo-m23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.2.) id q.d26.d7f675b (29672) for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2007 01:46:17 -0400 (EDT) From: WRJJRS@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 01:46:17 EDT Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] carbs vs efi To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1184996777" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5129 X-Spam-Flag: NO -------------------------------1184996777 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/20/2007 6:10:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, n3773@comcast.net writes: I have been surprised at the recent flurry of carb postings. I assumed that everyone was doing EFI. having experienced total electrical failure in march on a trip to the Bahamas I was thinking a lot about that Neanderthal carb bolted under my O320 and the magnetos, all unaware of what was going on in the radio, GPS, and nav lights departments. the reality is that you don't want a reserve battery to get you to the ground safely, you want to get to the Bahamas and back and THEN look into what's wrong. my questions are "how much power/performance is lost with a carb, and which carbs can do manual mixture?". is it stupid to ask if the Lycoming carb could run a 13B? someone mentioned Harley carbs having a good history of rough service. what about marvel/schebler? is this question heresy? :-) isn't efi a bit of overkill for an engine that basically runs at 100% power, 75% power and idle? scanning thru the archives I see a lot of postings regarding mixture, mapping, abrupt failures and such. does this complexity buy us 5%, 20%? the question of turbo-charging seems to beg similar line of questioning. kevin Kevin, not heresy at all. There are several factors here. First Tracy is doing some development work, but offering a very inexpensive EMS. Once you get everything right it should give great service. Ed Anderson is a good indicator that the system will run for a long time once dialed in. Some guys are doing fully redundant alternators AND batteries and not just because of the engine, rather a fully electrical panel. Go with what you feel secure with, and fly accordingly. I have posted before that mags can have trouble with high RPM engines. So unless you have an early front cover and are willing to run POINTS, you will still need an ignition. Most of the carb inquiries have been on account of George and Richard going with single rotors. I believe Richard may have a modified stocker ignition and a carbed P-port. He has done us all a great service building, and now testing a hybrid end plate. mostly aluminum, with a steel insert. (GOOD LUCK RICHARD!) Lynn and I have both grafted old mopar EI ignitions on to other engines. These require battery power but are otherwise unkillable. Available for next to nothing from J.C. Whitney but you must do the set up and wiring yourself. Tracy's system looks to be a good one, but you must realize that wiring and plumbing ABSOLUTELY MUST BE DONE PROPERLY. This is equally true of a Lycoming install, but more of the FWF or FWB (Canard) is available to you off the shelf. We lost Buly to some mistakes that he made with the wiring, not a complete failure, but intermittently causing him fail to start problems out of the blue. Buly is a good builder too and the troubles drove him and Tracy crazy. Only when he finally pulled his control box for an update could Tracy find the problem. He is putting in a Lyc. clone. This is a terrible loss for us. The problem was self generated, (he re-soldered a connector to gain clearance rather than re-do the panel), and that connector had the classically difficult to diagnose intermittent problem. Bully and family made the tough decision to forgo any further pioneering. To bad too, his plane would have been a great addition to the conversion "fleet." The point here is, like flying a cross-country, plan the install and then stick to the plan. If you run into a bind do the needed rework and don't "make do." You can go with carbs or EFI, there are several, Tracy's is aviation redundant, and the cheapest though. You must be able to understand the needs of digital electronics to install ANY EFI or EMS. Troubleshooting wiring is always the toughest job! This is a super long post already but I must tell you about a failure I had back in the days I did mechanics work to pay for school. I was doing a tune-up on a Kawasaki 175 single. Mag ignition 2 cycle, came in running for a regular service. I did points, timing, plug, carb adjustment, the works... After finishing my labors, THE DAMM BIKE WOULDN'T START! I checked spark with a test plug on the cylinder head and drained the float bowl to check fuel it was clean. This is the simplest engine in the world, a 2 stroke single! To cut to the chase the brand new SPARK PLUG was bad. I broke it apart later to check and found someone on the production line had left out the copper core connecting the top of the plug to the center electrode. The point is no matter how simple you think a job is it still requires logic and perseverance to be SURE everything is correct. And even "simple" stuff can fail. Bill Jepson ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour -------------------------------1184996777 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 7/20/2007 6:10:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, n3773@co= mcast.net writes:
I have been surprised at the recent flurry= of carb postings.  I assumed that everyone was doing EFI.  having= experienced total electrical failure in march on a trip to the Bahamas I wa= s thinking a lot about that Neanderthal carb bolted under my O320 and the ma= gnetos, all unaware of what was going on in the radio, GPS, and nav lig= hts departments.    the reality is that you don't want a rese= rve battery to get you to the ground safely, you want to get to the Bahamas=20= and back and THEN look into what's wrong.
my questions are "how much power/performan= ce is lost with a carb, and which carbs can do manual mixture?".  is it= stupid to ask if the Lycoming carb could run a 13B?  someone mentioned= Harley carbs having a good history of rough service.  what a= bout marvel/schebler?  is this question heresy? :-)  isn't efi a b= it of overkill for an engine that basically runs at 100% power, 75% power an= d idle?  scanning thru the archives I see a lot of postings regarding m= ixture, mapping, abrupt failures and such.  does this complexity buy us= 5%, 20%?  the question of turbo-charging seems to beg similar lin= e of questioning.    kevin
Kevin, not heresy at all. There are several factors here= . First Tracy is doing some development work, but offering a very inexpensiv= e EMS. Once you get everything right it should give great service. Ed Anders= on is a good indicator that the system will run for a long time once dialed=20= in. Some guys are doing fully redundant alternators AND batteries and not ju= st because of the engine, rather a fully electrical panel. Go with what you=20= feel secure with, and fly accordingly. I have posted before that mags c= an have trouble with high RPM engines. So unless you have an early front cov= er and are willing to run POINTS, you will still need an ignition.
 Most of the carb inquiries have been on account of= George and Richard going with single rotors. I believe Richard may have a m= odified stocker ignition and a carbed P-port. He has done us all a great ser= vice building, and now testing a hybrid end plate. mostly aluminum, with a s= teel insert. (GOOD LUCK RICHARD!)  Lynn and I have both grafted old mop= ar EI ignitions on to other engines. These require battery power but are oth= erwise unkillable. Available for next to nothing from J.C. Whitney but you m= ust do the set up and wiring yourself.
Tracy's system looks to be a good one, but you must real= ize that wiring and plumbing ABSOLUTELY MUST BE DONE PROPERLY. This is equal= ly true of a Lycoming install, but more of the FWF or FWB (Canard) is availa= ble to you off the shelf. We lost Buly to some mistakes that he made with th= e wiring, not a complete failure, but intermittently causing him fail t= o start problems out of the blue. Buly is a good builder too and the tr= oubles drove him and Tracy crazy. Only when he finally pulled his control bo= x for an update could Tracy find the problem. He is putting in a Lyc. c= lone. This is a terrible loss for us. The problem was self generated, (he re= -soldered a connector to gain clearance rather than re-do the panel), and th= at connector had the classically difficult to diagnose intermittent problem.= Bully and family made the tough decision to forgo any further pioneering. T= o bad too, his plane would have been a great addition to the conversion "fle= et."  The point here is, like flying a cross-country, plan the install=20= and then stick to the plan. If you run into a bind do the needed rework and=20= don't "make do."
 You can go with carbs or EFI, there are several, T= racy's is aviation redundant, and the cheapest though. You must be able to u= nderstand the needs of digital electronics to install ANY EFI or EMS. Troubl= eshooting wiring is always the toughest job!
This is a super long post already but I must tell y= ou about a failure I had back in the days I did mechanics work to pay for sc= hool. I was doing a tune-up on a Kawasaki 175 single. Mag ignition 2 cycle,=20= came in running for a regular service. I did points, timing, plug, carb adju= stment, the works... After finishing my labors, THE DAMM BIKE WOULDN'T START= ! I checked spark with a test plug on the cylinder head and drained the floa= t bowl to check fuel it was clean. This is the simplest engine in the world,= a 2 stroke single! To cut to the chase the brand new SPARK PLUG was bad. I=20= broke it apart later to check and found someone on the production line had l= eft out the copper core connecting the top of the plug to the center electro= de. The point is no matter how simple you think a job is it still requires l= ogic and perseverance to be SURE everything is correct. And even "simple" st= uff can fail.
 
Bill Jepson



Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.co= m.
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