Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #38588
From: Patrick Panzera <Panzera@Experimental-Aviation.com>
Subject: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Thrust measure.
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 16:25:12 -0700
To: 'Rotary motors in aircraft' <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lehanover@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 11:21 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Thrust measure.

 

In a message dated 7/19/2007 9:22:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Panzera@Experimental-Aviation.com writes:

With all due respect, what does measuring static thrust do for us?

Pat

 

My ideas may not be the complete list of information that could be recovered. Mr Lipps would know much more. Perhaps you could get Mr Lipps to comment? Paul was it? I enjoyed his talk at Jean this year. Thank you for that effort.

 

My pleasure.

 

I just did a key-word search through our current “All Paul Lipps” issue of CONTACT! Magazine, for the word “thrust”.

www.ContactMagazine.com/backissu.html

 

Here’s one short paragraph where Paul mentions static thrust. All other mentions (and formulas) of thrust are related to dynamic thrust.

 

SINGLE BLADE MYTH

One of the myths that has been propagated in the aviation community, to the point that it is “gospel”, is that the most efficient prop is a single blade; all higher number of blades falling further and further short of this paragon. Did you ever consider that a single-blade prop, developing thrust on only one side of the plane as it revolves, would cause the engine to cone violently in its mounts as it is twisted by the prop? The European’s latest turbo-prop transport, the A400-M, has eight-blade props! The Boeing MD-900 helicopter has a five-blade rotor. A popular regional turbo-prop airliner has a five-blade prop. Hasn’t anybody filled these plane-makers in on the errors of their ways? In a recent edition of Kitplanes, the author of an article on props uttered the same fallacy. He maintained that multiple blades interfere with each other. When I pointed out to him that at 200 mph and 2800 RPM, the blades on my three-blade prop follow three distinct helical paths through the air, and each blade is 25” ahead of the previous blade at the same point of rotation, he rather lamely explained that in static conditions interference occurs. STATIC? Who uses static thrust? Airplanes are meant to fly, not pull tree-stumps!

 

I know from several conversations with Paul that he cares very little about static thrust.

 

Propeller thrust might be useful in designing propellers.

 

At a gathering we had some time back, we had two nearly identical Corvair engines running on separate test stands. They had completely different props on them, one made for a Pietenpol, the other for a single place Sonerai. They both spooled up nicely to 2700 RPM. The Sonerai prop made a lot of wind for sure. The Piet prop made so much wind one couldn’t hardly stand or breathe behind it.

 

Here’s a shot of me, behind my test rig, running the Sonerai prop at full tilt.

http://www.experimental-aviation.com/Corvair/Images/WCCC/Event/TuftTest.jpg

If we had thrust measuring equipment I’m certain it would show us that the other engine/prop combination was easily making 2x the static thrust I was making.

 

Bug picture, what does that really prove?

 

Could I bolt the Pietenpol prop to the Sonerai and expect 2x thrust at altitude? No way. I’d probably climb like crazy but max out at 110 mph.

 

What does it tell us about the engines? If we could measure HP we could be sure that they were making the same power... but what does these static thrust measurements tell us about HP output?

 

We did swap props however. My friend ran my Sonerai prop on his engine and got the same RPM. I didn’t put his prop on my engine however. But for me, his ability to swing my prop on his engine at the same static RPM tells me that the engines were making identical power. Thrust told us nothing.

 

 It is hard to imagine a prop dyno not recovering thrust information.

 

A prop dyno as opposed to a water brake?

 

I’m having difficulty seeing the need for knowing static thrust at all, that’s why I asked the question in the first place.

So if it’s hard for you to imagine a prop dyno not giving static thrust info, please tell me what one can gain from knowing this information?

 

 For experiencing propeller stall.

 

Ok... I’ve seen countless little red biplanes hang from their prop at airshows; certainly the prop is “stalled”, and knowing that the engine/prop combination can produce thrust to counter the gross weight in order to allow the plane to hover is useful information to this small group of pilots. But how many of us really need that info?

 

 For comparing one prop to another.

 

Yes, you can compare one to another for a given situation, that being making wind while not moving. But that does that really tell us???

 

Say for example you have XYZ prop installed in a plane you have countless hours in. You measure the static thrust at 350 lbs at 2250 prop RPM.  Now you install an ABC prop that your buddy says should work better for you and you get 280 lbs at 2250... or you get 385 lbs at 2340 RPM.  What do we now know about prop ABC? Is it better or worse than prop XYZ? Bear in  mind, we know everything there is to already know about XYZ, but what have we learned about ABC now that we know what each prop produces in the matter of thrust?

 

Lately for making movies in a side view of blade flexing in single rotor installations.

 

Ah... yes, running a prop on the ground can tell you a lot of things. That’s why I have such a rig.

 

But measuring thrust had no part of the revelations from said prop in the video.

 

Pat

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