X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 10 [X] Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-04.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.103] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.8) with ESMTP id 2036954 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 10 May 2007 20:27:55 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.103; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-103-061.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.103.61]) by ms-smtp-04.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id l4B0QpGc009907 for ; Thu, 10 May 2007 20:26:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000d01c79363$5012e750$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Fw: CS engine controller Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 20:28:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C79341.C8AB5F20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C79341.C8AB5F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi TJ Tracy may not respond as he probably considers Paul's comments not = worth commenting on. But, here is my take on it for what it is worth. = This was my response to Mark's message below: ....Do you know anything about possible mixture issues with constant = speed props? Paul mentioned it on his list. Something about not having = a air flow sensor, it assumes fixed load at any given rpm. Is this = something else to worry about. Yes, I'm running a c/s prop. Maybe this = is a Tracy question..... =20 =20 I guess that since carburated aircraft engines (Lycomings, etc) which = also do not have an air flow they also won't work with CS props as = well. Sure a lot of money spent for something that doesn't work. =20 Yes, you need some indication of engine load - but manifold pressure = reflects airflow into the manifold when the engine is operating - no it = doesn't when the engine is stopped, but then who cares at that point. = Low manifold pressure =3D low air flow , high manifold pressure =3D high = air flow provided once again - the engine is operating. I mean that's = the basis for the "Speed Density" fuel injection controller concept of = the EC2- which the best I can tell is working on numerous aircraft. Tracy has a neat idea. With his "CS engine" he can set the "fly by = wire" TB to hold a constant rpm, constant manifold pressure or constant = fuel burn. Now like all engines, the set up will only work with = certain constraints. You can't take a 120 HP engine and put the nose up = for a 45 deg climb and expect it to hold 6000 rpm for ever. But, within = reasonable operating regimes it will work fine. Lets look at the three modes (my take on them - since I haven't seen or = discussed the concepts with Tracy - his may be considerably different - = more than one way to skin a grape,etc).=20 1. Constant rpm - very simple. The module senses engine rpm and = compares it to the value it has been instructed to hold. If the engine = rpm is below the target, the throttle is opened to increase power/rpm. = Once the target rpm is reached the throttle opening stops. The module = simply adjusts the throttle plate to maintain the target rpm. Here the = variable is the manifold pressure and the constant (target) is the rpm. = Just as you would jockey the throttle to do the same. You take whatever = manifold pressure is required to hold your target rpm. 2. Constant Manifold Pressure - very simple. The modules senses the = engine manifold pressure and compares it to the target value. If below = the target value the throttle plate is again opened and rpm increased = until the target manifold pressure is reached. Here the variable is the = rpm the constant (target) is the manifold pressure. You will take = whatever rpm is required to maintain your manifold pressure. 3. Constant Fuel Flow - a bit more complex. Here you could probably = vary both rpm and manifold pressure to achieve the desired fuel flow. = If the fuel flow drops, then the throttle is advanced, manifold pressure = increases and fuel flow increases as a result. When the fuel flow is = above the target the opposite happens. Now, I am not certain that Tracy's implementation is as I described = above, but that's how I see the basics of such an approach. So you can certainly make up your own mind about it and I am not a CS = expert (never had one) nor have I slept at the Holiday Inn last night, = but that is my take on it. =20 I mean given that Tracy has never yet turned out a product that failed = to operate as advertised, I'll bet on Tracy any day of the week. Why = folks even listen to Paul's nonsense is beyond me, of course I am still = flying a "Plugs Up" installation that according to Paul's decrees could = never work - so what do I know. There! my 0.02 on the topic. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Ed Anderson=20 Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 7:55 AM Subject: Re: Renesis CAS Connector Ed,=20 I know what you mean about Paul and his quirks (warts). We all have = them, some more obvious than others. ;-) Its good to hear that the "snubbers" are working. I was at my witt's = end trying to get my engine to run like I know it can. The best it ran = was with the fuel pressure dialed down into the teens. It idled great, = low rpm range was good, etc. Then I raised the pressure up to about = 30psi, and the symptoms returned. That's when I called Tracy. I feel = that he needs to get the word out to more customers like myself, = assuming that there are "more customers like me". Anyway, I'm looking = forward to smooth running. =20 Do you know anything about possible mixture issues with constant speed = props? Paul mentioned it on his list. Something about not having a air = flow sensor, it assumes fixed load at any given rpm. Is this something = else to worry about. Yes, I'm running a c/s prop. Maybe this is a = Tracy question. =20 Bobby and Paul butted heads over Bobby's motor mount design. That was = about a year ago, and now Bobby, and a few dozen others, have convinced = him that it was a bad design. It also had other problems, like the = mounting pads were out of plane, and the nose gear donuts were rubbing = on the mount tubes. So, we've come up with a way to use his original = Van's mount and make it work for the Rotary. I'm not sure who is doing = the mod, maybe Jerry. ???=20 I got a ride in a RV-7 this weekend. Nice airplane. But powered by a = Lycosaurus. It had a 3-screen Grand Rapids glass panel and a Garmin = 430. Can you say information overload? I hear that you can turn off = various features of the Grand Rapids. I would have to do that until I = was more comfortable with the basics, then add features one-by-one.=20 Mark (new grandpa) =20 On 4/28/07, Ed Anderson wrote:=20 Hi Mark, Getting long in the tooth for sure, but having good genes - my 85 = year old working Uncle met me when I landed in Louisiana - I hope to put = off the "wandering" a few more years {:>)=20 Glad to hear your fire alarm is working - neat gadget - might be a = market for such an item - you could start you own business and no more = working for in-laws {:>) Yes, get it done right at your own time table - we can wait for that = first problem-free flight. Saw Bobby Hughes at S & F and he said Paul L had apologizes (or as = close as he would get to one) for "hurting" Bobby feelings. =20 I think Paul was feeling a bit unloved at S & F, he struck sparks = with just about everybody including Tracy by announcing that RWS would = sell Paul's "How to cool your Wankel" book. Tracy had not agreed to = that but as I told Tracy, if you don't unequivocal tell Paul "NO!", = then he assumes the answer is "Yes". =20 One acquaintance who teaches physics at a North Carolina college = told me he though I was on to something with my explanation of my = "pinched - necked down" cooling ducts. Well, Paul over heard him and = tried to poo -poo the ideal that I may have come up with something that = the master had overlooked. I just told him to keep it quite as my ducts = didn't know they weren't suppose to work and my airplane had been = cooling fine for years. So there was no reason for me to buy his book.=20 He finally forced one in my hand, so I opened it to take a peek at = what Paul had written/borrowed on "Wedged ducts" and found an error = before I had read 3 sentences. Even Paul agreed it was an error - so he = took the book back. I was told several more errors had been found = before the day was over - not that having a few errors in a book is = something rare - but, I think Paul almost felt I had found it on purpose = to dig at him.=20 Well, not having been on his list for the last three or four years = has been very nice. He even told folks that I had left his list and = started one of my own (Fly Rotary) which was clearly a falsehood - OR he = really is starting to lose his facilities.=20 In any case, Sun & Fun was great fun and watching Art's FWF rotary = run was great if for no other reason that it bothered Paul a great deal. = It was a nicely put together installation which will certainly get = better as time goes along.=20 Well, back to reading about how to set up a Limited Liability = Corporation. Best Regards Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Ed Anderson=20 Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 9:11 PM Subject: Re: Renesis CAS Connector =20 Ed, Gald to hear from you. I was beginning you may be having a senior = moment and may still be "wandering in the wilderness" at SNF. Good to = hear you had a good time and that your new fangled gizmo was so well = accepted. So, working for yourself can be tough, but not as bad as = working for your in-laws. ;-0) =20 As for the CAS connector, I vaguely remembered someone saying that = the Mazda fuel injector connector could be made to work. I tried it = yesterday and sure enough, with a few minor mods, I was able to get it = to mate up like it came that way from the factory. So, that's behind me = now. I'm waiting for Tracy to return my EC-2, followed by a little = re-wiring and then we'll see how well the "snubber upgrade" works. I = sure hope it cures the tuning problems of the 3-rotor. =20 Nobody is more anxious to get the first flight done than me. You = guys will be among the first to know when I finally "get 'er done". = Right now I'm starting to get back into the saddle (flight training, = bumming rides, etc.). I've been building for way too long. Its time to = remember why I started down this path in the first place. =20 By the way, I have the fire detector installed and it works like a = champ (laboratory conditions only). Hope I never see that big red = warning light lit while flying. =20 I also got the GPI (ground proximity indicator) installed today. = That's the gauge that helps me flare by telling me how high I am above = the runway (3ft or less) via a bar LED. I won't be able to test it for = real until I'm flying. It looks like it will work as intended, but = there is nothing like the real world to reveal the warts.=20 =20 See ya, Mark =20 On 4/28/07, Ed Anderson wrote:=20 Hi Mark, I detoured to Louisiana after Sun & Fun, so just got back home = late yesterday. Sorry, can't help on your connector. Have not really = done any research on the Renesis as I am still flying the old hardware. = Bob white may be able to help - but, I've always found my Mazda = unique connectors at the junk yard. Had a great time at Sun & Fun, = demonstrated my EFI system monitor with the new colored OLED display and = seem to have some serious interest. Egads! I may find myself working = for myself despite my vows never to do so {:>)=20 We are eagerly awaiting for your first flight - so keep at it. Best Regards Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: eanderson@carolina.rr.com=20 Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 12:09 PM Subject: Renesis CAS Connector =20 Hi Ed, Have you recovered from SNF? There has been very little = information posted on the Fly Rotary about the "latest and greatest". = I'm assuming that you went this year. No, I didn't go, instead chose to = stay home and work on getting the airplane finished. (is it ever really = finished?)=20 With your extensive electronics knowledge, I was wondering if = you know of a source for a Renesis CAS connector? I'm converting my = engine to the newer Renesis style crank trigger and have everything = worked out except for the connector itself. Anyway, I haven't yet = checked with Bob White, or Bob Mears, but they are on the list of people = to check with. Final option will be to scrounge the wrecking yards for = a suitable connector. Tracy is updating my EC-2 to work with the = Renesis sensor. So, all I need is the connector. Any leads would be = appreciated.=20 Thanks, Mark ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C79341.C8AB5F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi TJ
 
 Tracy may not respond as he probably = considers=20  Paul's comments not worth commenting on.  But, here = is my=20 take on it for what it is worth.  This was my  response = to Mark's=20 message  below:
 
....Do you know anything about possible mixture issues with = constant=20 speed props?  Paul mentioned it on his list.  Something about = not=20 having a air flow sensor, it assumes fixed load at any given rpm.  = Is this=20 something else to worry about.  Yes, I'm running a c/s prop.  = Maybe=20 this is a Tracy question..... 
 
 
I guess that  since carburated aircraft = engines=20 (Lycomings, etc)  which  also do not have an air flow = they also=20 won't   work  with CS props as well.  Sure a lot of = money=20 spent for something that doesn't work. 
 
Yes, you need some indication of engine load - = but=20 manifold pressure reflects airflow into the manifold  when the = engine is=20 operating - no it doesn't when the engine is stopped, but then who cares = at that=20 point.  Low manifold pressure =3D low air flow , high manifold = pressure =3D=20 high air flow provided once again - the engine is operating.  I = mean that's=20 the basis for the "Speed Density" fuel injection controller concept of = the EC2-=20 which the best I can tell is working on numerous aircraft.
 
  Tracy has a neat idea.  With his "CS = engine"=20 he can set the "fly by wire" TB  to hold a constant rpm, constant = manifold=20 pressure or constant fuel burn.    Now like all engines, = the set=20 up will only work with certain constraints.  You can't take a 120 = HP engine=20 and put the nose up for a 45 deg climb and expect it to hold 6000 rpm = for=20 ever.  But, within reasonable operating regimes it will work=20 fine.
 
Lets look at the three modes (my take on them - = since I=20 haven't seen or discussed the concepts with Tracy - his may be = considerably=20 different - more than one way to skin a grape,etc). 
 
 1.  Constant rpm - very simple.  = The=20 module senses engine rpm and compares it to the value it has been = instructed to=20 hold.  If the engine rpm is below the target, the throttle is = opened to=20 increase power/rpm. Once the target rpm is reached the throttle opening=20 stops.  The module simply adjusts the throttle plate to maintain = the target=20 rpm.   Here the variable is the manifold pressure = and the=20 constant (target) is the rpm. Just as you would jockey the throttle = to do=20 the same.  You take whatever manifold pressure is required to hold = your=20 target rpm.
 
2. Constant Manifold Pressure - very=20 simple.  The modules senses the engine manifold pressure and = compares it to=20 the target value.  If below the target value the throttle plate is = again=20 opened and rpm increased until the target manifold pressure is = reached. =20 Here the variable is the rpm the constant (target) is the manifold=20 pressure. You will take whatever rpm is required to maintain your = manifold=20 pressure.
 
3.  Constant Fuel Flow - a bit more = complex. =20 Here you could probably vary both rpm and manifold pressure to achieve = the=20 desired fuel flow.  If the fuel flow drops, then the throttle is = advanced,=20 manifold pressure increases and fuel flow increases as a result.  = When the=20 fuel flow is above the target the opposite happens.
 
Now, I am not certain that Tracy's = implementation is as I=20 described above, but that's how I see the basics of such an=20 approach.
 
So you can certainly make up your own mind about = it and I=20 am not a CS expert (never had one) nor have I slept at the Holiday Inn = last=20 night, but that is my take on it. 
 
I mean given that Tracy has never yet turned out = a product=20 that failed to operate as advertised, I'll bet on Tracy any day of the=20 week.  Why folks even listen to Paul's nonsense is beyond me, of = course I=20 am still flying a "Plugs Up" installation that according to Paul's=20 decrees could never work - so what do I know.
 
There! my 0.02 on the topic.
 
Ed
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mark = Steitle=20
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 = 7:55=20 AM
Subject: Re: Renesis CAS = Connector

Ed,
I know what you mean about Paul and his quirks (warts).  We = all have=20 them, some more obvious than others.  ;-)
 
Its good to hear that the "snubbers" are working.  I was at = my=20 witt's end trying to get my engine to run like I know it can.  = The best=20 it ran was with the fuel pressure dialed down into the teens.  It = idled=20 great, low rpm range was good, etc.  Then I raised the  = pressure up=20 to about 30psi, and the symptoms returned.  That's when I called=20 Tracy.  I feel that he needs to get the word out to more = customers like=20 myself, assuming that there are "more customers like me".  = Anyway, I'm=20 looking forward to smooth running. 
 
Do you know anything about possible mixture issues with constant = speed=20 props?  Paul mentioned it on his list.  Something about not = having a=20 air flow sensor, it assumes fixed load at any given rpm.  Is this = something else to worry about.  Yes, I'm running a c/s = prop.  Maybe=20 this is a Tracy question. 
 
Bobby and Paul butted heads over Bobby's motor mount = design.  That=20 was about a year ago, and now Bobby, and a few dozen others,=20 have convinced him that it was a bad design.  It also had = other=20 problems, like the mounting pads were out of plane, and the nose gear = donuts=20 were rubbing on the mount tubes.  So, we've come up with a way to = use his=20 original Van's mount and make it work for the Rotary.  I'm not = sure who=20 is doing the mod, maybe Jerry.  ???
 
I got a ride in a RV-7 this weekend.  Nice airplane.  = But=20 powered by a Lycosaurus.  It had a 3-screen Grand Rapids glass = panel and=20 a Garmin 430.  Can you say information overload?  I hear = that you=20 can turn off various features of the Grand Rapids.  I would have = to do=20 that until I was more comfortable with the basics, then add features=20 one-by-one.
 
Mark
(new grandpa)
 


 
On 4/28/07, Ed=20 Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;=20 wrote:=20
Hi Mark,
 
Getting long in the tooth for sure, but = having good=20 genes - my 85 year old working Uncle met me when I landed in = Louisiana - I=20 hope to put off the "wandering" a few more years {:>) =
 
Glad to hear your fire alarm is working - = neat gadget=20 - might be a market for such an item - you could start you own = business and=20 no more working for in-laws {:>)
 
Yes, get it done right at your own time = table - we can=20 wait for that first problem-free flight.
 
Saw Bobby Hughes at S & F and he said = Paul L had=20 apologizes (or as close as he would get to one) for "hurting" Bobby=20 feelings. 
 
I think Paul was feeling a bit unloved at S = & F,=20 he struck sparks with just about everybody including Tracy by = announcing=20 that RWS would sell Paul's "How to cool your Wankel" book.  = Tracy had=20 not agreed to that but as I told  Tracy, if you don't = unequivocal tell=20 Paul "NO!", then he assumes the answer is "Yes". 
 
 One acquaintance who teaches physics = at a North=20 Carolina college told me he though I was on to something with = my=20 explanation of my "pinched - necked down" cooling ducts.  Well, = Paul=20 over heard him and tried to poo -poo the ideal that I may have come = up with=20 something that the master had overlooked.  I just told him to = keep it=20 quite as my ducts didn't know they weren't suppose to work and my = airplane=20 had been cooling fine for years.  So there was no reason for me = to buy=20 his book.
 
He finally forced one in my hand, so I = opened it to=20 take a peek at what Paul had written/borrowed on "Wedged ducts" and = found an=20 error before I had read 3 sentences.  Even Paul agreed it was = an error=20 - so he took the book back.  I was told several more errors had = been=20 found before the day was over - not that having a few errors in a = book is=20 something rare - but, I think Paul almost felt I had found it on = purpose to=20 dig at him.
 
 Well, not having been on his list for = the last=20 three or four years has been very nice.  He even told folks = that I had=20 left his list and started one of my own (Fly Rotary) which was = clearly a=20 falsehood - OR he really is starting to lose his facilities. =
 
In any case, Sun & Fun was great fun and = watching=20 Art's FWF rotary run was great if for no other reason that it = bothered Paul=20 a great deal.   It was a nicely put together installation = which=20 will certainly get better as time goes along.
 
Well, back to reading about how to set up a = Limited=20 Liability Corporation.
 
Best Regards
 
Ed
----- Original Message ----- =
From: = Mark = Steitle=20
To: Ed = Anderson=20
Sent: Saturday, April 28, = 2007 9:11=20 PM
Subject: Re: Renesis CAS=20 Connector

 
Ed,
Gald to hear from you.  I was beginning you may be = having a=20 senior moment and may still be "wandering in the=20 wilderness" at SNF.  Good to hear you had a good time = and that=20 your new fangled gizmo was so well accepted.  So, working for = yourself can be tough, but not as bad as working for your=20 in-laws.  ;-0) 
 
As for the CAS connector, I vaguely remembered someone saying = that=20 the Mazda fuel injector connector could be made to work.  I = tried it=20 yesterday and sure enough, with a few minor mods, I was able to = get it to=20 mate up like it came that way from the factory.  So, = that's=20 behind me now.  I'm waiting for Tracy to return my EC-2, = followed by=20 a little re-wiring and then we'll see how well the "snubber = upgrade"=20 works.  I sure hope it cures the tuning problems of the=20 3-rotor. 
 
Nobody is more anxious to get the first flight done than = me. =20 You guys will be among the first to know when I finally "get 'er=20 done".  Right now I'm starting to get back into the saddle = (flight=20 training, bumming rides, etc.).  I've been building for = way too=20 long.  Its time to remember why I started down this path in = the first=20 place.  
 
By the way, I have the fire detector installed and = it works like=20 a champ (laboratory conditions only).  Hope I never see = that big=20 red warning light lit while flying. 
 
I also got the GPI (ground proximity = indicator) installed=20 today.  That's the gauge that helps me flare by telling = me how=20 high I am above the runway (3ft or less) via a bar = LED.  I=20 won't be able to test it for real until I'm flying.  It looks = like it=20 will work as intended, but there is nothing like the real world to = reveal=20 the warts.
     
See ya,
Mark

 
On 4/28/07, Ed=20 Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com > wrote:=20
Hi Mark,
 
I detoured to Louisiana after Sun & = Fun, so=20 just got back home late yesterday.  Sorry, can't help on = your=20 connector.  Have not really done any research on the = Renesis as I=20 am still flying the old hardware. 
 
Bob white may be able to help - but, = I've always=20 found my Mazda unique connectors at the junk yard.  Had a = great=20 time at Sun & Fun, demonstrated my EFI system monitor with = the new=20 colored OLED display and seem to have some serious = interest. =20 Egads! I may find myself working for myself despite my vows = never to do=20 so {:>)
 
We are eagerly awaiting for your first = flight - so=20 keep at it.
 
Best Regards
 
Ed
----- Original Message ----- =
From: Mark = Steitle
To: eanderson@carolina.rr.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, = 2007=20 12:09 PM
Subject: Renesis CAS=20 Connector

 
Hi Ed,
 
Have you recovered from SNF?  There has been very = little=20 information posted on the Fly Rotary about the "latest = and=20 greatest".  I'm assuming that you went this = year.  No,=20 I didn't go, instead chose to stay home and work on getting = the=20 airplane finished. (is it ever really finished?)
 
With your extensive electronics knowledge, I was = wondering if=20 you know of a source for a Renesis CAS = connector? =20 I'm converting my engine to the newer Renesis style crank = trigger and=20 have everything worked out except for the connector = itself. =20 Anyway, I haven't yet checked with Bob White, or Bob Mears, = but they=20 are on the list of people to check with.  Final option = will be to=20 scrounge the wrecking yards for a suitable connector.  = Tracy is=20 updating my EC-2 to work with the Renesis sensor.  So, = all I need=20 is the connector.  Any leads would be appreciated.
 
Thanks,
=
Mark


<= /HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C79341.C8AB5F20--