X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-03.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.102] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.2) with ESMTP id 1547826 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 09 Nov 2006 08:22:45 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.102; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-098-162.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.98.162]) by ms-smtp-03.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id kA9DM94v024126 for ; Thu, 9 Nov 2006 08:22:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001b01c70402$24ab4bc0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: P Porting template? Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 08:22:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C703D8.389051F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C703D8.389051F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dave, yes, there is no doubt the side port (old 13B or new Renses) can easily = make 170 HP at 6000 rpm. However, there are those who have been = disappointed in the power there installation produced. This is seldom = ever the fault of the engine - but induction and exhaust systems must be = given some thought and study in order to get the best. Exhaust back = pressure, for example, has long been reported to very detrimental to = rotary power. I think many people simply have too large an induction area. I know = when I first started back in 1992 contemplating my rotary installation, = the only people I had to go to were the rotary racers. They told me = what was the "cats meow" for an induction system. So I ended up with a = dual throat Weber throttle body with 4 injectors. Each throat had a 2" = dia opening. I estimate I was probably producing around 130-140 HP on = my first flights (1998) and while the RV flew Ok (186 TAS was max speed) = the take off roll was long and climb was around 700-800 fpm. In 2000, I went from the short length 2"dia dual openings to much = smaller diameter (1 1/2 " dia secondary and 1 1/4" primary) tubes and = longer induction tube lengths. Power and performance increased = dramatically. Rate of climb increased by 300 fpm. Then, when I went to = the high compression rotors in 2001 and a 91 turbo block, rate of climb = was up to 1200 fpm. The finally? step was to go with the 2.85:1 gear = box and much larger prop which moved rate of climb at gross weight to = 1600 fpm and top speed 200 MPH TAS. So what turns out to be the "cats meow" for racers buzzing 9000 + rpm is = not necessarily idea for engine turning 5500-6500 rpm. So my viewpoint is anybody who wants to experiment with "P" ports should = be encouraged to do so - we all learn from experimentation - but, its = not necessary if your objective is producing 160-170 HP. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: david mccandless=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 7:28 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: P Porting template? Hi Hans, Doug , Ed, anyone else, looking at the Mazda dyno graphs, All RX8 engines are side port, the 4 port makes 200+ at 7000 right out = of the box, so you can easily get 170-180 at 6000 rpm.=20 BR, Dave McC On 9, Nov , at 6:10 PM, Hans Conser wrote: Well, telling you upfront that I am not flying a 13B; I disagree = with Ed, I don't think you will see that sort of power with a side port = 13B unless you are over 7500 RPM. At leaast this is what I think based = on some dyno runs with various side port engines I have built. P-Port is = the way to go. Hans On Nov 8, 2006, at 9:03 PM, Ed Anderson wrote: Hi Doug, =20 If you want to develop between 160 and 170 HP from a 13B, I for = one would not consider a P port. The reason, is that the stock 13B will = easily give you that kind of power with less effort and cost. If you = wanted HP on the order of 200 + then a P port might be one approach to = consider.=20 =20 Now if you simply want to experiment with a P port, then got to = it. But, it is simply not needed for the power levels you are looking = for. =20 The only person I am aware of who may have the information you = want is Jerry Hey - he use to be on the list, but I have not seeing = anything from him recently. This is the last e mail address I have = for Jerry Hey E-mail Address(es): jerryhey@earthlink.net =20 you might send him a message. =20 =20 Best Regards =20 Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: DLOMHEIM@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 10:45 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] P Porting template? I have a friend in Denver who is willing to set up his milling = machine to mill out some P-Ports on a couple of my old rotor housings = over Thanksgiving break. My question is if any of you know where I can = get a copy of a template for use with 1.5" diameter intake pipes. I = would think there would be something in the public domain by now (but I = could be wrong). The potential benefits of a P-Port make it pretty = attractive to at least experiment with at some point and I will be happy = to develop between 160 and 170 hp in my 9A so I think that should be = doable... =20 Doug RV-9A, 13B installation ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C703D8.389051F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Dave,
 
yes, there is no doubt the side port (old 13B or = new=20 Renses) can easily make 170 HP at 6000 rpm.   However, there = are those=20 who have been disappointed in the power there installation = produced.  This=20 is seldom ever the fault of the engine - but induction and exhaust = systems must=20 be given some thought and study in order to get the best.  Exhaust = back=20 pressure, for example,  has long been reported to very detrimental = to=20 rotary power.
 
  I think many people simply have too large = an=20 induction area.  I know when I first started back in 1992 = contemplating my=20 rotary installation, the only people I had to go to were the rotary=20 racers.  They told me what was the "cats meow" for an induction=20 system.  So I ended up with a dual throat Weber throttle body with = 4=20 injectors.  Each throat had a 2" dia opening.  I estimate I = was=20 probably producing around 130-140 HP on my first flights (1998) and = while the RV=20 flew Ok (186 TAS was max speed) the take off roll was long and climb was = around=20 700-800 fpm.
 
In 2000, I went from the short length 2"dia dual = openings=20 to much smaller diameter (1 1/2 " dia secondary and 1 1/4" primary) = tubes and=20 longer induction tube lengths.  Power and performance increased=20 dramatically.  Rate of climb increased by 300 fpm.  = Then, when I=20 went to the high compression rotors in 2001 and a 91 turbo block, rate = of climb=20 was up to 1200 fpm.  The finally? step was to go with the 2.85:1 = gear box=20 and much larger prop which moved rate of climb at gross weight to 1600 = fpm and=20 top speed 200 MPH TAS.
 
So what turns out to be the "cats meow" for = racers buzzing=20 9000 + rpm is not necessarily idea for engine turning 5500-6500=20 rpm.
 
So my viewpoint is anybody who wants to = experiment with=20 "P" ports should be encouraged to do so - we all learn from = experimentation -=20 but, its not necessary if your objective is producing 160-170 = HP.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 david=20 mccandless
Sent: Thursday, November 09, = 2006 7:28=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: P = Porting=20 template?

Hi Hans, Doug , Ed, anyone else,
looking at the = Mazda dyno=20 graphs,
All RX8 engines are side port, the 4 port makes 200+ at = 7000 right=20 out of the box, so you can easily get 170-180 at 6000 rpm.
BR, = Dave=20 McC

On 9, Nov , at 6:10 PM, Hans Conser wrote:

Well, telling you upfront that I am not flying a 13B; I = disagree=20 with Ed, I don't think you will see that sort of power with a side = port 13B=20 unless you are over 7500 RPM. At leaast this is what I think based = on some=20 dyno runs with various side port engines I have built. P-Port is the = way to=20 go.

Hans


On Nov 8, 2006, at 9:03 PM, Ed Anderson=20 wrote:

Hi = Doug,
 
If=20 you want to develop between 160 and 170 HP from a 13B, I for one = would not=20 consider a P port.  The reason, is that the stock 13B will = easily=20 give you that kind of power with less effort and cost.  If = you wanted=20 HP on the order of 200 + then a P port might be one approach to=20 consider. 
 
Now=20 if you simply want to experiment with a P port, then got to = it.  But,=20 it is simply not needed for the power levels you are looking = for.
 
The=20 only person I am aware of who may have the information you want is = Jerry=20 Hey - he use to be on the list, but I have not seeing anything = from him=20 recently.    This is the last e mail address I have = for=20 Jerry Hey
E-mail = Address(es):
  = jerryhey@earthlink.net
 
you=20 might send him a message.
 
 
Best=20 Regards
 
Ed
----- = Original=20 Message = -----
From:= =20 DLOMHEIM@aol.com=20
To:=20 Rotary=20 motors in aircraft =
Sent:= =20 Wednesday, November 08, 2006 10:45=20 PM
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] P Porting=20 template?


I=20 have a friend in Denver who is willing to set up = his milling=20 machine to mill out some P-Ports on a couple of my old = rotor=20 housings over Thanksgiving break.  My question is if any of = you=20 know where I can get a copy of a template for use with 1.5" = diameter intake pipes.  I would think there would be = something in=20 the public domain by now (but I could be wrong).  The=20 potential benefits of a P-Port make it pretty attractive to at = least=20 experiment with at some point and I will be happy to develop = between 160=20 and 170 hp in my 9A so I think that should be = doable...
 
Doug
RV-9A,=20 13B=20 = installation 
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C703D8.389051F0--