X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mailout1.pacific.net.au ([61.8.0.84] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3.6) with ESMTP id 613845 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:53:54 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=61.8.0.84; envelope-from=leonp@pacific.net.au Received: from mailproxy1.pacific.net.au (mailproxy1.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.86]) by mailout1.pacific.net.au (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-3) with ESMTP id j6OMr84C023773 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:53:08 +1000 Received: from ar1 (ppp2187.dyn.pacific.net.au [61.8.33.135]) by mailproxy1.pacific.net.au (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-3) with SMTP id j6OMr398025006 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:53:04 +1000 Message-ID: <000e01c590a2$29660260$8721083d@ar1> From: "Leon Promet" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: To Kelly Re: [FlyRotary] Mazda Factory O rings vs TES O rings Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:50:58 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C590F5.F9F13910" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C590F5.F9F13910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Kelly, Thanks for the reply. So how is it that you know that TES O rings will = quote: "take more heat and pressure" unquote. What sort of heat?? What sort of pressure?? How do you know. Who told = you?? Has anybody really done some scientific testing where they have got two = identical motors side by side, run them dry, and the compared the = damage. As I said previously, give your Wankel a decent "cook" and = you warp the rotor housings. They are then "thow-aways". I'm also curious as to just when and why would you be considering = rebuilding your engine (so you can re-use the TES O rings). seeing that = if an engine rebuild is done peroperly in the first place, they seem to = last for up to 20 years and 500,000 km if looked after (regular oil = changes, clean coolant with corrosion inhibitor, and a well maintained = air filter). There are basically only three things that will kill a rotary: 1. Serious Overheating (loss of coolant, drop a fan belt, water pump = failure etc) 2. Running LOW or right out of oil (blown oil hose, filter cannister = etc or just plain carelessness of the operator) 3. Swallowing something solid and obdurate (like a nut or a washer or = a rock), or being fed dusty air (if you are silly enough not to run an = aircleaner). I'd be interested on your take. Anyone else with some experience based = reasons ?? Cheers, Leon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kelly Troyer=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 12:37 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Mazda Factory O rings vs TES O rings Leon and all, For my part I just like the fact that the TES seals will take = more heat and pressure and reportedly are reusable if undamaged.........Anything I can do economically to upgrade my 13B to extend its life for use at power levels (75 to 100 percent) it was not probably not designed for I am willing to do........After all it is our butts we are putting in = these airplanes........IMHO.........That being said I do appreciate the = opinions=20 of all in the group !! -- Kelly Troyer=20 Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2=20 -------------- Original message from "Leon Promet" = : --------------=20 Hey Guys, Enough already! I'm with Dave on this TES O ring business, but I'm = even MORE radical ... =20 If the factory O rings were good enough to win Le Mans 24 Hr, it = would seem that they SHOULD be good enough for our purposes. Moreover, = they seem to last 20 odd years and over 500,000 km in cars that are well = looked after and serviced regularly and the cooling systems kept clean. = The only time I've EVER seen Factory O rings fail (since the mid = '70s) is if the engine has been "cooked", (and then the rotor housings = are warped), or the rotor housings have corroded (due to lack of a = regular coolant changes), and in both these failure modes, the rotor = housings are throw-aways anyhow. Not the O ring's fault that the engine = leaks water - OIF (Operator Induced Failure). So seriously, can someone PLEASE tell me WHY you all want to use = TES O rings instead of the factory ones?? Apart from price, (which = seems to be an issue with some), and the fact that the big bearded guy = at that "other" place says you should - so why don't you guys just ask = HIM for the relevant part # - he knows EVERYTHING).=20 Still, for the life of me, I just can't see what technical = advantages there are (apart from busting the O ring grooves if you = happen to get the sizing wrong). I'm afraid that it has totally escaped = me. Cheers, Leon ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C590F5.F9F13910 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Kelly,
 
Thanks for the reply.  So how is = it=20 that you know that TES O rings = will=20 quote:
 
"take more heat=20 and pressure" unquote.
 
What sort of heat??  What sort of=20 pressure??  How do you know.  Who told you??
 
Has anybody really done some = scientific=20 testing where they have got two identical motors side by side,  run = them=20 dry,  and the compared the damage.  As I said = previously,  give=20 your Wankel a decent "cook"  and you warp the rotor housings.  = They=20 are then "thow-aways".
 
I'm also curious as to just when and = why would=20 you be considering rebuilding your engine (so you can re-use the TES O=20 rings). seeing that if an engine rebuild is done peroperly in the = first=20 place,  they seem to last for up to 20 years and 500,000 km if = looked after=20 (regular oil changes,  clean coolant with corrosion = inhibitor,  and a=20 well maintained air filter).
 
There are basically only three things = that will=20 kill a rotary:
 
1.  Serious Overheating (loss of=20 coolant,  drop a fan belt,  water pump = failure etc)
2.  Running LOW or right out = of oil=20 (blown oil hose,  filter cannister etc or just plain carelessness = of the=20 operator)
3.   Swallowing = something solid and=20 obdurate (like a nut or a washer or a rock),  or being fed dusty=20 air (if you are silly enough not to run an = aircleaner).
 
I'd be interested on your take.  = Anyone else=20 with some experience based reasons ??
 
Cheers,
 
Leon
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Kelly = Troyer
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 = 12:37=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Mazda = Factory O=20 rings vs TES O rings

Leon and all,
      For my part  I just like the = fact=20 that the TES seals will take more heat
and pressure and reportedly are reusable if=20 undamaged.........Anything
I can do economically to upgrade my 13B to extend its life for = use=20 at
power levels (75 to 100 percent) it was not probably not designed = for
I am willing to do........After all it is our butts we are = putting in=20 these
airplanes........IMHO.........That being said I do = appreciate the=20 opinions
of all in the group !!
--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke=20 Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2




--------------=20 Original message from "Leon Promet" <leonp@pacific.net.au>:=20 --------------

Hey Guys,
 
Enough already!  I'm with Dave = on this TES=20 O ring business,  but I'm even MORE radical ...   =20
 
If the factory O = rings were good=20 enough to win Le Mans 24 Hr,  it would seem that they SHOULD be = good=20 enough for our purposes.  Moreover,  they seem to last 20 = odd=20 years and over 500,000 km in cars that are well looked after and = serviced=20 regularly and the cooling systems kept clean. 
 
The only time I've EVER = seen Factory O=20 rings fail (since the mid '70s) is if the engine has been=20 "cooked",  (and then the rotor housings are warped),  or = the rotor=20 housings have corroded (due to lack of a regular coolant = changes),=20  and in both these failure modes,  the rotor housings are=20 throw-aways anyhow.  Not the O ring's fault that the engine = leaks water=20 - OIF (Operator Induced Failure).
 
So seriously,  can someone = PLEASE tell me=20 WHY you all want to use TES O rings instead of the factory = ones?? Apart=20 from price,  (which seems to be an issue with some),  and = the fact=20 that the big bearded guy at that "other" place says you should = - so why=20 don't you guys just ask HIM for the relevant part # - he knows = EVERYTHING).=20
 
Still, for the life of = me,  I=20 just can't see what technical advantages there are (apart from = busting=20 the O ring grooves if you happen to get the sizing wrong).  I'm = afraid=20 that it has totally escaped me.
 
Cheers,
 
Leon
 
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