Return-Path: Received: from frontend3.cwpanama.net ([201.225.225.169] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c2) with ESMTP id 771329 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Mar 2005 07:16:37 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=201.225.225.169; envelope-from=rijakits@cwpanama.net Received: from [201.224.93.110] (HELO usuarioq3efog0) by frontend3.cwpanama.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.1) with SMTP id 36125768 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Mar 2005 07:38:20 -0500 Message-ID: <002d01c5217d$03da6480$6e5de0c9@usuarioq3efog0> From: "rijakits" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel cutoff valve necessary? Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 07:15:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01C52153.1AC66920" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C52153.1AC66920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last post... ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Sower To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 1:09 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel cutoff valve necessary? This whole thing is getting bizarre. rijakits wrote: "You should be able to do *XXX* while in a coma" is obviated by "there is no *XXX* to do". <> Excuse me, but there you are wrong! Didn't you prefer to have the ON/OFF switch from the fuel pump as the sole means to shut off the fuel? So you still have to switch that switch (the "XXX" in a coma is still there!) - However that switch will probably brake at some stage as you mostlikely use it at least twice every flight. PROBABLY?? If we were to do the math on that one, how old would poor Rusty have to be before it happened? How many total hours on your chopper that broke a switch? NOthing to do with total hours, just the chance bad switch (2 occacsions at around 400 hrs the other at about 3200 hrs) <>Now it freezes open or the switchlever brakes, how do you shut off the fuel (incl. the fuel flow) without pulling the Masterswitch or -fuse? Why should he HAVE to or WANT shut it off without pulling the Master Switch? So you can keep using your nav/radio/electric trim..... <>I am not reaching here either - I had both things happen (clutch engagement switch lever broke in the engaged position, no problem as my next stop was on base anyway, but it was a broken switch) on a different occasion the < snip > In an emergency there is only two things to do: fuel and electricity as Paul mentioned. And we've reduced pilot workload by 50% by accomplishing both of these complex tasks by the simple expedient of turning off the Master. Yaaaaaaay for our side !!! <>Fuel gets really important if you on fire! Now what if that fire already ate some of your electrics? If it ate some electrics, turn it off with the Master. If the fire ate the electrics that control the Master, it's already off. If the fire is big enough to do all the crap you postulate, you don't care, because you've been dead for some time now. We needn't even discuss (naaaw - let's go ahead and discuss it for a couple of days ...) how the fire got so serious as to burn up all the electrics and open the fuel line so it could feed this conflagration without being noticed until the Master couldn't turn off. Some fires start at the cables, they are called "electric fires" for that matter!! Also happened to me in a EC120 where LACU (light and ancillary control unit) shortened out on a small switch - the whole dash starts to light up with all alarms then goes quiet - the whole thing looked like a christmas tree. None of the switches worked anymore (although at the end it was just one faulty switch which shortened out and burned about 4 wires). Luckely the whole thing stopped itself in there and I was able to fly on to a suitable landing place. However the electric fuel pump couldn't be switched any more either ( same control unit). If that electric fire would have gone any further, the mechanical fuel shut off would have been the only way to shut off the fuel. <>Thanks but I will go "mechanical" with a simple valve - I take my chances with 2 additional fueline connections! Even a ball valve involves significant torsion to move it. Wouldn't all these cycles fatigue the fuel line so it might break off at the upstream end of the valve? Would that take more or less cycles than failing the fuel switch? How often to you switch on/off your fuel pump? How often would you plan to use your emergency fuel shut off? <> Thomas J. :)) GAWD ain't it grand making up all kinds of silly-ass scenarios to punch imaginary holes in a couple of positions that have totally equal merit and totally equal flaws? ... Jim S. Don't get emotional Jim, relax:)) I don't make up things (and if I do I say so....), all the mentioned switch trouble happened to me (and there would be plenty of other occasions that did not happen to me, but that I wittnessed...) I am making a living flying, so I may be exposed to aviation a lot more than you are able too, unfortunately that gives me also the relative higher chance to encounter situations I'd rather avoid. I love experimental for that exact reason - experimenting, not being stuck with certificated stuff. BUT certain things are required on certified aircraft for a very good reason. Thomas Jakits (resting my case....) <> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C52153.1AC66920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Last post...

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jim=20 Sower
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft

Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 = 1:09=20 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel = cutoff=20 valve necessary?

This whole thing is getting=20 bizarre.
rijakits wrote:

<snip>

"You should be able to do = *XXX* while in a coma" is obviated by "there is no *XXX* to do".
<>
Excuse me, but there you are=20 wrong!
Didn't you prefer to have the ON/OFF switch from the fuel = pump as=20 the sole
means to shut off the fuel?
So you still have to = switch that=20 switch (the "XXX" in a coma is still
there!) - However that = switch will=20 probably brake at some stage as you = mostlikely=20 use it at least twice every flight.
PROBABLY?? If we were to = do the math=20 on that one, how old would poor Rusty have to be before it = happened? How=20 many total hours on your chopper that broke a switch? = NOthing to do with total hours, just the chance bad = switch (2=20 occacsions at around 400 hrs the other at about 3200 = hrs)

<>Now = it freezes=20 open or the switchlever brakes, how do you shut off the = fuel
(incl. the=20 fuel flow) without pulling the Masterswitch or = -fuse?
Why should he HAVE to or WANT shut it = off without=20 pulling the Master Switch? So you can = keep using=20 your nav/radio/electric trim.....

<>I am = not=20 reaching here either - I had both things happen (clutch = engagement
switch=20 lever broke in the engaged position, no problem as my next stop = was
on=20 base anyway, but it was a broken switch) on a different occasion = the
<=20 snip >

In an emergency there is only two things to do: = fuel and=20 electricity as Paul
mentioned.
And=20 we've reduced pilot workload by 50% by accomplishing both of these = complex=20 tasks by the simple expedient of turning off the Master. = Yaaaaaaay for=20 our side !!!

<>Fuel = gets=20 really important if you on fire! Now what if that fire already = ate
some=20 of your electrics?
If it ate = some=20 electrics, turn it off with the Master. If the fire ate the = electrics=20 that control the Master, it's already off. If the fire is big = enough to=20 do all the crap you postulate, you don't care, because you've been = dead for=20 some time now. We needn't even discuss (naaaw - let's go ahead = and=20 discuss it for a couple of days ...) how the fire got so serious as to = burn up=20 all the electrics and open the fuel line so it could feed this = conflagration=20 without being noticed until the Master couldn't turn off.=20 Some fires start at the cables, = they are=20 called "electric fires" for that matter!! Also happened to me in a = EC120 where=20 LACU (light and ancillary control unit) shortened out on a small = switch=20 - the whole dash starts to light up with all alarms then goes quiet - = the=20 whole thing looked like a christmas tree. None of the switches worked = anymore=20 (although at the end it was just one faulty switch which shortened out = and=20 burned about 4 wires). Luckely the whole thing stopped itself in there = and I=20 was able to fly on to a suitable landing place. However the electric = fuel pump=20 couldn't be switched any more either ( same control unit). If that=20 electric fire would have gone = any=20 further, the mechanical fuel shut off would have been the only way to = shut off=20 the fuel.
<>Thanks but I=20 will go "mechanical" with a simple valve - I take my chances
with = 2=20 additional fueline connections!
Even a=20 ball valve involves significant torsion to move it. Wouldn't all = these=20 cycles fatigue the fuel line so it might break off at the upstream end = of the=20 valve? Would that take more or less cycles than failing the fuel = switch? How often to you switch on/off = your fuel=20 pump? How often would you plan to use your emergency fuel = shut=20 off?

<>
Thomas J.=20 :))

GAWD ain't it grand making up all kinds of = silly-ass=20 scenarios to punch imaginary holes in a couple of positions that have = totally=20 equal merit and totally equal flaws? ... Jim S. Don't get emotional Jim, relax:)) I don't make = up things=20 (and if I do I say so....), all the mentioned switch trouble happened = to me=20 (and there would be plenty of other occasions that did not happen to = me, but=20 that I wittnessed...)

I am making a living = flying, so I=20 may be exposed to aviation a lot more than you are able too,=20 unfortunately that gives me also the relative higher chance to = encounter=20 situations I'd rather avoid.

I love experimental = for that=20 exact reason - experimenting, not being stuck with certificated stuff. = BUT=20 certain things are required on certified aircraft for a very good=20 reason.

Thomas Jakits = (resting my=20 case....)

<>

Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive: http://lancai= ronline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html

>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive: = http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html

------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C52153.1AC66920--