Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao10.cox.net ([68.230.241.29] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.5) with ESMTP id 523472 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 18:10:59 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.29; envelope-from=ALVentures@cox.net Received: from BigAl ([68.107.116.221]) by fed1rmmtao10.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-117-20041022) with ESMTP id <20041108231030.CAVY18545.fed1rmmtao10.cox.net@BigAl> for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:10:30 -0500 From: "Al Gietzen" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: EWP Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:10:43 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c4c5e8$2cb59a00$6400a8c0@BigAl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C4C5A5.1E94CB00" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C4C5A5.1E94CB00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sooooo...., actually knowing little, but suspecting much: =20 I'd suspect that Mazda designed the water pump and flow = characteristics to provide adequate cooling for an idling engine in Phoenix in the summertime. I'd also bet that the majority of time, a car is sitting at idle, as opposed to cruising down the freeway at 70 mph. =20 My suspicion is that the water pump is designed for some arbitrary = flow rate that will be adequate at idle - and at normal cruise (with it's attendant increased airflow). I'd guess that the pump is flowing a much greater volume of water at high RPM's than is really necessary, because = the pump impeller is not variable. The engine temperature does not remain = cold, because the thermostat closes, either completely or partially to keep = the block temperature at 180-deg. =20 Have ya-all ever driven a car with a stuck-open thermostat...? The engine never warms up. Runs OK, but builds-up sludge and carbon inside. =20 Jack; =20 The reason a car without a thermostat never warms up is because it is typically running about 30-40% of rated hp. In an airplane we are = normally running about 70-90 % =20 I don't disagree with your flow assessment for the car; but consider = this. My engineering analysis (all the same stuff that our friend Bill Shertz = has now plotted out for everyone) for designing a somewhat optimum cooling system for my 20B told me I needed 40 to 50 gpm flow rate at 6000 rpm = and 260 hp; that range depending on variable factors. For a 13B that' = something like 22 to 33 gpm. When I measured the flow rate during the dyno tests = I was pleased to find that the pump produced 48 gpm, with no thermostat, = and 37 gpm with a thermostat. This was pumping thru the engine and through = the dyno loop which I know has less back pressure than my plane's cooling = loop, so my actual flow will be less. =20 So I don't see any excess flow over what I need at high rpm/power, even running the engine without a thermostat. Yes, there are regimes where = it will be pumping more than I need - in the same regimes where I don't = care whether I'm wasting 1 hp driving a bit more flow than needed. And, I = could also put in bigger (heavier) radiators and run a larger delta T and a = bit less flow. =20 (OK, I lied, get on with the beheading - it's only because I'm not = feeling well and sitting around at my computer instead of working on the = airplane; honest) =20 Al ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C4C5A5.1E94CB00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

    Sooooo...., actually = knowing little, but suspecting much:

 

    I'd suspect that Mazda = designed the water pump and flow characteristics to provide adequate cooling for an = idling engine in Phoenix in the summertime.  I'd also bet = that the majority of time, a car is sitting at idle, as opposed to cruising down = the freeway at 70 mph.

 

    My suspicion is that the = water pump is designed for some arbitrary flow rate that will be adequate at idle - = and at normal cruise (with it's attendant increased airflow).  I'd guess that the pump is = flowing a much greater volume of water at high RPM's than is really necessary, = because the pump impeller is not variable.  The engine temperature does not = remain cold, because the thermostat closes, either completely or partially to = keep the block temperature at 180-deg.

 

    Have ya-all ever = driven a car with a stuck-open thermostat...?  The engine never warms up.  = Runs OK, but builds-up sludge and carbon inside.

 

Jack;

 

The reason a car without a = thermostat never warms up is because it is typically running about 30-40% of rated hp. In = an airplane we are normally running about 70-90 %

 

I don’t disagree with your = flow assessment for the car; but consider this.  My engineering analysis (all the = same stuff that our friend Bill Shertz has now plotted out for everyone) for designing a somewhat optimum cooling system for my 20B told me I needed = 40 to 50 gpm flow rate at 6000 rpm and 260 hp; that range depending on = variable factors. For a 13B that’ something like 22 to 33 gpm.  When I measured the flow rate during the dyno tests I was pleased to find that = the pump produced 48 gpm, with no thermostat, and 37 gpm with a = thermostat.  This was pumping thru the engine and through the dyno loop which I know has = less back pressure than my plane’s cooling loop, so my actual flow will = be less.

 

So I don’t see any excess = flow over what I need at high rpm/power, even running the engine without a thermostat.  Yes, there are regimes where it will be pumping more = than I need – in the same regimes where I don’t care whether = I’m wasting 1 hp driving a bit more flow than needed.  And, I could = also put in bigger (heavier) radiators and run a larger delta T and a bit less = flow.

 

(OK, I lied, get on with the = beheading – it’s only because I’m not feeling well and sitting around at = my computer instead of working on the airplane; honest)

 

Al

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