Return-Path: Received: from smtp015.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.173.59] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.5) with SMTP id 523286 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:20:28 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=216.136.173.59; envelope-from=prvt_pilot@yahoo.com Received: from unknown (HELO your6oef4glwm9) (prvt?pilot@24.136.229.34 with login) by smtp015.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2004 21:19:57 -0000 From: "Steve Brooks" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: EWP Info- Lynn? Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:22:50 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AC_01C4C5AF.310D4B40" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AC_01C4C5AF.310D4B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MessageReading these discussions, one thought occurred to me about my installation. I've been fighting with somewhat high temperatures, and I have an under drive main pulley. I installed the under drive pulley because I understood that pump cavitation was a problem at continuous high RPM's. Now I'm wondering if slowing down the water pump is causing the temperatures to be higher than they would otherwise be. Steve Brooks (wishing I hadn't thrown away stock pulley) -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Jack Beale Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 4:05 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EWP Info- Lynn? All, Been following the EWP thread with interest.... Sooooo...., actually knowing little, but suspecting much: I'd suspect that Mazda designed the water pump and flow characteristics to provide adequate cooling for an idling engine in Phoenix in the summertime. I'd also bet that the majority of time, a car is sitting at idle, as opposed to cruising down the freeway at 70 mph. My suspicion is that the water pump is designed for some arbitrary flow rate that will be adequate at idle - and at normal cruise (with it's attendant increased airflow). I'd guess that the pump is flowing a much greater volume of water at high RPM's than is really necessary, because the pump impeller is not variable. The engine temperature does not remain cold, because the thermostat closes, either completely or partially to keep the block temperature at 180-deg. Have ya-all ever driven a car with a stuck-open thermostat...? The engine never warms up. Runs OK, but builds-up sludge and carbon inside. Therefore (if all that's correct) an EWP will not have to pump a correspondingly greater volume of water as engine speed increases. I agree that it will take more flow for a higher horsepower, the question remains: "What MASS of water per unit measure of time will cool 180 HP...?" Here's a suggested test for someone with an engine: Run a rotary with an EWP and radiator combination (no temp regulator) (may need a fan). Run the engine at idle, until the temperature stabilizes at (say) 180-deg. Measure the flow rate required. Increase the RPM's to 2000, and increase the flow rate (if nec) to stabilize the temperature at 180-deg. Measure the flow rate required. Increase the RPM's to 3000, and increase the flow rate (if nec) to stabilize the temperature at 180-deg. Measure the flow rate required Jack Beale ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ----- Original Message ----- From: Russell Duffy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 3:31 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EWP Info- Lynn? As I’ve suggested before, I don’t see saving power consumption as a reason for considering an EWP, especially considering the losses in converting mech energy to electrical and back again. I think the biggest chance to save power on cooling is if Mazda is providing way more than is necessary at our cruise rpms. I have to suspect that's the case, since Todd is running just fine with only 9.X gpm. Al (I swear I will not say another word about EWPs; that beheading thing is just too scary) Ha. Don't worry, my wife would kill me if I stained the carpet :-) As for EWP's saving power, you'd think that the first people to jump on that would be the racers. I know that these pumps are sold to drag racers, but I can't say that I've heard of other types of racers using these pumps. Hey Lynn, -Are EWP's against the rules? -Has someone determined that they don't save any HP? -Has someone determined that they won't cool the engine in racing conditions? Cheers, Rusty (just can't have any fun on this list) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 11/1/2004 ------=_NextPart_000_00AC_01C4C5AF.310D4B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Reading these discussions, one thought occurred to me about my=20 installation.  I've been fighting with somewhat high temperatures, = and I=20 have an under drive main pulley.  I installed the under drive = pulley=20 because I understood that pump cavitation was a problem at continuous = high=20 RPM's.
 
Now=20 I'm wondering if slowing down the water pump is causing the temperatures = to be=20 higher than they would otherwise be.
 
Steve=20 Brooks (wishing I hadn't thrown away stock pulley)
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Jack=20 Beale
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 4:05 PM
To: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EWP Info-=20 Lynn?

All,
 
    Been following the EWP thread with = interest....
 
    Sooooo...., actually knowing little, but = suspecting=20 much:
 
    I'd suspect that Mazda designed the water pump = and=20 flow characteristics to provide adequate cooling for an idling engine = in=20 Phoenix in the summertime.  I'd also bet that the majority of = time, a car=20 is sitting at idle, as opposed to cruising down the freeway at 70 = mph.
 
    My suspicion is that the water pump is = designed for=20 some arbitrary flow rate that will be adequate at idle - and at normal = cruise=20 (with it's attendant increased airflow).  I'd guess that = the=20 pump is flowing a much greater volume of water at high RPM's than is = really=20 necessary, because the pump impeller is not variable.  The engine = temperature does not remain cold, because the thermostat closes, = either=20 completely or partially to keep the block temperature at = 180-deg.
 
    Have ya-all ever driven a car with a = stuck-open=20 thermostat...?  The engine never warms up.  Runs OK, but = builds-up=20 sludge and carbon inside.
 
    Therefore (if all that's correct) an = EWP will=20 not have to pump a correspondingly greater volume of water as engine = speed=20 increases.  I agree that it will take more flow for a higher = horsepower,=20 the question remains: "What MASS of water per unit measure of time = will cool=20 180 HP...?"
 
    Here's a suggested test for someone with an = engine:=20
Run a rotary with an EWP and radiator combination (no temp=20 regulator) (may need a fan).
Run the engine at idle, until the temperature stabilizes = at=20 (say) 180-deg.
Measure the flow rate required.
Increase the RPM's to 2000, and increase the flow rate (if nec) = to=20 stabilize the temperature at 180-deg.
Measure the flow rate required.
Increase the RPM's to 3000, and increase the flow rate (if nec) = to=20 stabilize the temperature at 180-deg.
Measure the flow rate required
 
Jack Beale
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Russell=20 Duffy
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 3:31 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EWP Info- Lynn?

As I=92ve = suggested=20 before, I don=92t see saving power consumption as a reason for = considering an=20 EWP, especially considering the losses in converting mech energy to = electrical=20 and back again.   
 
I think the=20 biggest chance to save power on cooling is if Mazda is = providing way=20 more than is necessary at our cruise rpms.  I have to suspect = that's the=20 case, since Todd is running just fine with only 9.X=20 gpm.  
 

Al (I swear I will not = say=20 another word about EWPs; that beheading thing is just too scary) 

 

Ha.  Don't=20 worry, my wife would kill me if I stained the carpet=20 :-)  

 

As for EWP's=20 saving power, you'd think that the first people to jump on that would = be the=20 racers.  I know that these pumps are sold to drag racers, but I = can't say=20 that I've heard of other types of racers using these pumps. =20

 

Hey Lynn,=20

 

-Are EWP's=20 against the rules?

-Has someone=20 determined that they don't save any = HP? 

-Has someone determined that they won't cool the engine = in racing=20 conditions?

 

Cheers,

Rusty (just=20 can't have any fun on this=20 = list) 

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